IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                 FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
 
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
 
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
 
    Plaintiff,
 
vs.
 
TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,
 
    Defendant.
 
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                     REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
                 (Trial to Jury:  Volume 112)
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         Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 8:45 a.m., on the 8th day of December,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.

 Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
  Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
    P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
                          APPEARANCES
         PATRICK RYAN, United States Attorney for the Western
District of Oklahoma, and RANDAL SENGEL, Assistant U.S.
Attorney for the Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park
Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing
for the plaintiff.
         LARRY MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON, GEOFFREY MEARNS, JAMIE
ORENSTEIN, and AITAN GOELMAN, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
         MICHAEL TIGAR, RONALD WOODS, REID NEUREITER, and JANE
TIGAR, Attorneys at Law, 1120 Lincoln Street, Suite 1308,
Denver, Colorado, 80203, appearing for Defendant Nichols.
                         *  *  *  *  *
                          PROCEEDINGS
    (In open court at 8:45 a.m.)
         THE COURT:  Be seated, please.
         Good morning.
         MR. TIGAR:  Mr. Woods is interviewing the witnesses
who are in custody this morning.  And it is with Mr. Nichols'
consent that he is not present for a portion of the morning.
         THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  You wish me to
advise the jury that he's going to be absent for a while?
         MR. TIGAR:  I don't think it's necessary, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  All right.
         MR. TIGAR:  Unless that's your normal practice.
         THE COURT:  I'll do whatever you prefer.
         MR. TIGAR:  No.  I think we can just leave it.  He'll
be back.
         THE COURT:  Okay.  Thank you.  Let's bring in the
jury.
    (Jury in at 8:46 a.m.)
         THE COURT:  Members of the jury, good morning.
         We're ready to proceed with the taking of additional
testimony in this case and call for the next witness.
         MR. TIGAR:  Call Michael Abrams.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right
hand, please.
    (Michael Abrams affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         State your full name for the record and spell your
last name.
         THE WITNESS:  Michael Abrams, M-A-B-R-A-M-S (sic).
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  Dr. Abrams, I'm going to ask you some questions about the
effect of methamphetamine on people, but first, I'd like to
talk about your qualifications.  Are you a medical doctor?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Where did you graduate from medical school, sir?



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
A.  University of Iowa.
Q.  When was that, sir?
A.  1967.
Q.  When was the first time that you had an opportunity to
treat people who had ingested or taken methamphetamine?
A.  Probably early 70's.
Q.  Where was that, sir?
A.  At Broadlawns Medical Center.
Q.  Now, what is your position today, sir?
A.  My title is Director of Combined Medical Specialties.
Q.  And where is the Broadlawns Medical Center?
A.  It's the public county hospital in Des Moines, Iowa.
Q.  Well, let me start then with your -- when you got out of
medical school, did you practice -- have a family medicine
practice?
A.  I took a family prac -- a rotating internship at University
of California-Sacramento and then went to Broadlawns Medical
Center to complete a family practice training program.
Q.  And did there come a time when you became Director of
Emergency Medical Services?
A.  That would be in August, 1972.
Q.  And as Director of Emergency Medical Services, did you
begin to acquire some experience in the treatment of
methamphetamine usage and addiction?
A.  Yes.



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
Q.  Will you tell the jury what -- what that was.
A.  Well, in -- in emergency medicine, patients are brought
there who may be psychotic or overdosed or have bad reactions
from a multiplicity of medications, any addictive drugs.
Amphetamines were popular in those days, and we didn't have the
drug screening to detect all drugs.  But that was my first
experience of treating overdoses was in the early 70's.
Q.  And moving then to 1975, did you have some role with
respect to setting up a program about the Polk County Jail?
A.  Yes.  I was asked by the City Council and the Board of
Supervisors Health Planning Council to devise a medical --
medical psychiatric program for the Polk County Jail.
Q.  Did there come a time, sir, when you became board
certified?
A.  In what specialty?
Q.  In addiction medicine.
A.  Yes.
Q.  And when was that?
A.  That was in 1987.
Q.  In order to become board certified in addiction medicine,
what did you have to do?
A.  You have to have at least five years of clinical experience
in dealing with addicted patients, and then you have to have
some continuing education hours of courses, and then you have
to take an all-day-long board test.



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
Q.  And in 1990, did your responsibilities change?
A.  In 1990, we were seeking -- the hospital was seeking a -- a
physician who would direct the combined medical-psychiatric
addiction services at Broadlawns, and I was part of that
recruiting group.  We didn't find anybody, so I was asked if I
would take on that responsibility and give up the emergency
medicine and which I did in 1992.
Q.  And in 1992, did you then get the title Director of
Combined Medical Specialties?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And what are your responsibilities today as Director of
Combined Medical Specialties at Broadlawns?
A.  It's to direct patient care, evaluation and diagnosis,
teaching, administration, and directing programs.
Q.  In addition to your responsibilities in the care and
treatment of patients and in diagnosis, have you done teaching?
A.  Yes.
Q.  In what capacity or capacities have you done teaching, sir?
A.  Medical students, physicians, nurses, physician assistants,
physician assistants students, nurses, nurses students and
chemical dependency counselors and then for communities.
Q.  Do you see patients on a daily basis?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And if we were to ask you today about how many patients you
have seen who you've treated for methamphetamine usage, how



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
many would that be, sir?
A.  Which my direct responsibility would be between 2- to 300
per year.  Indirectly through the jail program, we have about
2- to 3,000 that are admitted there per year which I have
overall responsibility of directing protocols and care through
the physician assistants that we have there.  And then in ICU
and the other med/surg services and the emergency department, I
provide consultations for the physicians in directing care for
those patients and other patients that need my consultation.
Q.  When, sir, do you -- let me ask you, do you identify a
certain point in your treatment of patients, in seeing patients
at which you observed an increase in the amount of
methamphetamine usage we are seeing?
A.  In Iowa, we started seeing some numbers in the early 90's,
and in '93, it got to an epidemic type of numbers where we've
seen several per week, both in the jail setting and emergency
setting on the inpatient unit.
Q.  And based on that, did you do further reading and study
about the effects of methamphetamine usage?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And are you prepared to tell us about that today?
A.  Yes.
Q.  I'd like to place up on the machine, but for your eyes only
at the moment, what I've marked as Defendant's Exhibit D6.
Would that drawing help you to explain the effect of



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
methamphetamine on the brain and the central nervous system?
A.  Yes.
         MR. TIGAR:  We offer it for demonstrative purposes.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received for that purpose.  You may show
it.
         MR. TIGAR:  All right.  Show it.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  Doctor, the jurors are now looking at this diagram, the
same one that you and I are.  And it's got some scientific
names of things.  But can you tell us specifically what this
brain reward circuit -- what is this showing us here?
A.  This has come about -- just to give you some background --
out of about 20 years of neuroscience research on both animals,
rats, primates, monkeys, and trying to decide exactly where
addictive drugs work in the brain.  So this has been many years
of neuroscience research out of NIDA and NIH and out East.
Q.  Doctor, before we continue, let me ask you, is it possible,
in your view, to do a clinical trial of the effect of
methamphetamine where you'd use human subjects and see what it
does to them?
A.  No.  That's not allowable.  It's unethical at this point
because methamphetamine is a dangerous drug and it's a Schedule
2 drug, and we can't take a drug and give it to patients that
are Schedule 2 at high doses.



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
Q.  Okay.  So what we're seeing here, this is a cross section
of the human brain; right?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Now, as human beings, do we have a mechanism that tells us
that we should repeat certain kinds of behavior?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And for example, if -- if we eat food and we get pleasure
from eating the food, do we have a mechanism that tells us,
well, we should do that a certain number of times?
A.  Yes.  Yes.
Q.  Now, can you -- can you identify using this and, using the
example of eating food, how the human brain sends out the
signal to us, well, time to eat again.  That was a good thing
for -- a healthy thing for the organism to be doing?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Would you please do that, sir?
A.  Do I just point at this?
Q.  Yes.  You can just point at it, or using the pen you have
there that has a wire on it, you can actually draw, reach
underneath the glass and draw on the screen, whatever you would
prefer to do.
A.  This area in the middle part of the brain and down through
here is what are called the mesolimbic system or the survival
part of the brain.  This -- areas right in through here, these
red, green, and blue spots, these are the areas that are the



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
diet center, the water center, and the sexual drive center.
Q.  Okay.  So the red one I'm pointing to with the pen here,
the green is the little nubbin here, and the blue looks -- it
looks like a little kidney bean in there.
A.  Yes.
Q.  Shaped thing.  Okay.
A.  So these are the areas that monitor what goes into our
body, what stimuli come in; and this -- if this red spot here

is stimulated and we get a good feeling throughout the rest of
the brain, then the rest of the brain tells this thing here,
This is good, repeat this behavior.  So this is a reinforcement
reward behavior.
Q.  Okay.  And should I -- should I leave this on, or should
we -- do you have a diagram that shows the production of the
substance that spreads through the brain and -- and carries
that message?
A.  These -- the nerve cells don't have an electrical
connection between the cells themselves, so we -- there is a --
a chemical called a neurotransmitter that goes from one cell
and talks to the other cell.
Q.  Okay.
A.  And the main -- and the main --
Q.  If I could stop you right there.  So the cells are not
hooked up so that electrical charges pass.  In order for
information or for a stimulus to go from one cell to another,



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
there's something called a neurotransmitter?
A.  Correct.
Q.  And that's -- what is that?  A chemical substance?
A.  That's a chemical substance, yes.
Q.  And are you able, through your research, to identify what
that chemical substance is?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Okay.  What is that chemical substance?
A.  That is called dopamine.
Q.  Dopamine, D-O-P-A-M-I-N-E?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Okay.  Well -- let me put up again -- take this off and put
up for your eyes only -- is this a chart that was actually
taken from a popular magazine?
A.  Yes.
Q.  But does it accurately show the release of dopamine and how
it spreads through the brain and what it does?
A.  Yes.
         MR. TIGAR:  This is D12.  We offer it for
demonstrative purposes.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received for that purpose.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  I'm going to show you the top portion here; and I know the
printing is going to be too small to read on the screen, but



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
what are we -- what are we seeing here?
A.  This is -- it just shows what the nerve transmission is in
the brain.  Take two cells out of the brain --
Q.  Okay.  These are these two cells here; right?
A.  Right.  There's an electrical transmission that goes down
one cell.  And then these little tentacles.  When it talks to
the other cell, then it's a chemical reaction.  That's what
these little -- this spot here is in this top cell.
Q.  Okay.
A.  This bottom part is this bottom cell, and this little box
here is what this is over here.  These little red dots, those
are the neurochemicals that show the transmission goes from one
cell to the other.
Q.  Okay.
A.  And this is at a rate like 270 miles an hour.  That's how
rapid that is.
Q.  So let's -- let's back up a little bit.  If the body gets a
stimulus, such as eating food, dopamine is produced; is that
right?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And that transmits the sensation to the receiver cell?
A.  Yes.  Dopamine goes across that membrane and tells that
other cell, This is a good feeling, tells the other cells in
the brain, Reinforce this feeling.
Q.  Okay.  And -- now, does -- what happens then to this



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
dopamine that is released that tells the brain this is a good
feeling?
A.  The dopamine is then uptaked by this other cell and tells
the cell what to do; and then whatever is left over, then
the -- the brain is a good utilization of chemicals.  So the
original cell where it came from, it soaks it back up again to
reuse it again.
Q.  Okay.  And is the dopamine reabsorbed?
A.  That's part of it.  And then there's an enzyme that breaks
down that dopamine.  If there's too much excreted, then there's
an enzyme that breaks it down, also.
Q.  What is that enzyme called that breaks it down?
A.  Well, it's a fancy term, called monoamine oxidase enzyme.
I mean, it breaks down amines like dopamine, epinephrine,
adrenalin.  Those sorts of neurochemicals.
Q.  Okay.  Can we call it MAO?
A.  MAO would be fine.
Q.  Okay.  And that's the enzyme?
A.  Yes.
Q.  So let's -- let's go back to the dopamine.  What happens if
this dopamine, this chemical in your brain, keeps on getting
produced, if there's too much of it?
A.  Then it overrides the cells here and excites -- overexcites
the brain tissue 100 plus times or more, depending on what's
stimulating it.



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
Q.  And what sorts of symptoms would you begin to see if
somebody's got too much of this dopamine in their brain?
A.  One of the first signs you would see, you would start to
talk fast and blah, blah, blah, blah, real quickly, and then I
would start to move quicker.  I would be faster, responding to
things around me.  I would move quickly.  I would try to do a
lot of things in a hurry.  And the dopamine increases your
sensitivity to your muscle cells, your other brain cells, makes
you things do (sic) a lot more rapidly than normal.
Q.  And what happens then if the MAO, the enzyme that's
supposed to break it down and make it goes (sic) away -- if you
inhibit that, if you stop that from breaking it down?
A.  That would be another reason to increase the dopamine; and
also, it makes people feel good.  If you feel good just after a
meal, then if you increase the dopamine, then you really --
later.  You have no depression, you have no negative thoughts.
Everything is wonderful.  The world is wonderful.  People
around you are wonderful.  So there's also an emotional feeling
besides the motor activity.
Q.  Okay.  Now, I'm going to come down to the bottom part of
this chart, and let's see what cigarettes do to dopamine, just
to use a drug that some people know about.  What happens
with -- with cigarettes?
A.  Nicotine is a drug that does have activity and stimulating
dopamine and serotonin and increases the sense of well-being,



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
increases one's mood, makes them feel better.  It gives them
some stimulation.
Q.  And would that -- if a person has never smoked before and
they light up a cigarette, would that account for that feeling
of light-headedness or giddiness?
A.  That would be some of the effects, yes.
Q.  Okay.  Now, I'd like to put up -- let's look at the cocaine
effect.  What does cocaine do to you in terms of this dopamine?
A.  Cocaine increases the dopamine across this membrane by
blocking the re-uptake after it goes into the cell.  It blocks
this uptake into the cell, so it increases more dopamine across
this membrane here.
Q.  And that -- does that account for the cocaine high?
A.  Yes.  It also increases norepinephrine and dopamine and
serotonin.  But dopamine is the main drug it increases and
gives the euphoria, the high feeling.
Q.  Okay.  Now I'm going to move over to amphetamines.  See if
I can put this up here.  Now, what -- do amphetamines operate
the same as cocaine?
A.  They have the same impact, increasing dopamine, but they do
it by different mechanisms.
Q.  All right.  What's the mechanism by which methamphetamine
operates on this hypothetical brain or this model of a brain
cell here?
A.  Dopamine -- methamphetamine works on this part of the nerve



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
cell to increase these dopamine vacuoles directly.  It is
thought to increase the synthesis.  It also tends to block this
MAO enzyme that we talked about earlier.  It damages the cell
membrane here to release more.  More dopamine.  And if you have
so much dopamine in the system, then it stops re-uptake, just
the fact there's so much.  It overrides the cell and goes out
into the other parts of the brain tissue.
Q.  Now, sir, what kind of a dosage of cocaine does -- does it
take for a person to get that cocaine high?
A.  It depends on how many times they use it and what their
genetics are.  But if an individual would take maybe that
30 milligrams of cocaine, the first time, they would get a
feeling of high or euphoria like if someone smoked a couple
cigarettes, the first time, they might feel giddy and high.
Q.  All right.  And what is the difference in terms of effect
between cocaine and methamphetamine?
A.  The cocaine isn't as potent a stimulator of the dopamine as
the methamphetamine.  The -- if you call it equivalents, then
methamphetamine may be 10 to 20 times more potent per dose to
increase the dopamine chemical in the brain cells.
Q.  And in terms of -- is -- is methamphetamine addictive, in
your opinion?
A.  Yes.  These are -- "addictive" is an old term.  We -- with
this new research, we're looking at terms like "reinforcement
reward system."  When these drugs are put into the brain and



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
these -- the cells want this drug back so we call it "reward
reinforcement circuitry system."  In the old terminology, that
would be an addiction terminology; that this drug will addict
the brain.  It addicts each individual cell in that red spot
that we talked about earlier.
Q.  Do you do teaching of law enforcement people and family
members, other people, about what the symptoms are of this
methamphetamine usage?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And have you prepared a chart about the effects of
methamphetamine usage?
A.  Yes.
Q.  All right.  I'm going to show you what -- first for your --
only.  What we've marked as Defendant's Exhibit D10.  Is that
the chart that you prepared?
A.  Yes.  This is one of the charts.
         MR. TIGAR:  Okay.  And we offer that for demonstrative
purposes.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection.
         THE COURT:  Received.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  Now, Doctor, what we are seeing on the screen, you've
titled "Malignant Methamphetamine Addiction Syndrome," and
could you go through the parts of this and explain to the jury
what is this green arrow here?



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
A.  When we talk about addicting drugs and causing a rush, when
a person takes a -- smokes a drug that's addictive, like
methamphetamine or cocaine, if they inject it, they get a rush.
They may get increased blood pressure, pulse.  They feel high.
It may last anywhere from 8 to 10 minutes to an hour or two.
It's a real high, intense feeling; and that feeling kind of
levels off and they feel euphoric and good, and that's what
these signs and symptoms on the left side is.  And this is the
dopamine levels in the brain.  As the dopamine levels go up,
then these signs and symptoms go up in that individual.
Q.  Now, how -- how do people take methamphetamine?  What do
they -- how do the users put it in their body?
A.  They put it in different methods.  Eating it, drinking it,
snorting it, smoking it, injecting it.
Q.  Okay.  Now, in this chart -- so this line across here,
that's the normal level of dopamine; right?
A.  That would be --
Q.  Is that what it is?
A.  The normal background that we all would have.
Q.  Right.  And that's as -- as you explained, that's part of
our -- the body telling us what kind of behavior we ought to
engage in in order to procreate, keep ourselves fit, keep
enough water in the system and so on?
A.  That would be correct.
Q.  Okay.  Now, as a person ingests on this up level here, you



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
have the word "paranoid."  What does that mean?
A.  That's an effect on the brain where people get
hypervigilant, hypersensitive and they see things that aren't
there or they feel they are being followed.  And it's a very
pervasive symptom because it disturbs the person's life, every
minute of the day.  And they usually seek medical or
psychiatric attention for that symptom if it's that bothersome,
but it's usually they see things that really aren't there, but
the brain perceives them as they are really there.
Q.  And you've got a list of things here.  Can you just read
those off and tell us what those mean, going up the chart,
starting with "increased energy."
A.  Well, as we increase the dopamine levels small amounts at a
time, we have increased energy and this euphoria, this good
feeling.  You may not sleep for a day or two.  Hyperkinetic is
motor activity where the arms and the legs and the tongue and
everything is -- moves quicker and faster.
         As you move up beyond that, what we call the -- the
preaddictive level, then you can get into the danger, malignant
part of methamphetamine.  And this is indeed malignant because
this is where people kill themselves, they kill other people,
there's domestic violence.  They will do very strange and weird
things and -- and my terminology, people get killed or hurt in
this phase; and this is -- this is malignant phase.
Q.  Now, that -- you've then -- you have your green arrow that



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
goes up, and then you have this red jagged line here.  And the
green arrow, is that the rush, the quick high?
A.  That's the quick high.
Q.  Okay.  And then the red, you say "tweaking."  What does
that mean?
A.  This is just a -- it's not a medical term.  "Tweaking"
means the people are amped like an amplifier.  You tweak an
amplifier, you turn it up and it's very intense.  And the
individual may run out that dose of methamphetamine, for 4 to
12 to 36 hours; and their mood may go up and down, and they may
want to crave more drug.  They may have a mood change, all
within this tweaking period.  And different times and different
people tweak in different ways, depending on how long they have
been on the drug and how much dose they have taken.
Q.  Let me stop here for a minute.  You say that the dose takes
a certain amount of time.  For comparison, if somebody smokes a
cigarette, a person that doesn't smoke very much, how long does
the dopamine cycle that a cigarette produces last?
A.  It may last three or four hours, two to four hours.
Q.  And how about if a person ingests cocaine?  How long does
that effect last?
A.  That may last eight to ten minutes.
Q.  Okay.  And how about a person who ingests methamphetamine?
A.  That may last four to 24 hours.
Q.  Now, is methamphetamine a more economical drug for the



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
abuser than cocaine?
A.  By economics, you mean how much they spend?
Q.  How much they spend for it.
A.  The current pay for a gram of cocaine and gram of
methamphetamine is like $100.  And that would be like three
Tylenol tablets, so this is part of the reason why the am --
methamphetamine is increased.  It is "economical," quote,
unquote, and they can buy a gram of methamphetamine that may
last them all week.  If one buys a gram of cocaine, it may last
them just a few hours.
Q.  And is it possible to make methamphetamine in a -- in a
fairly unsophisticated laboratory?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And cocaine is derived, though, from a plant, isn't it?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And that -- that's a plant that's grown mostly outside the
United States?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Now looking at this red line here, what does that describe,
this jagged, red line?
A.  The amounts of dopamine are still fluctuating on -- because
there's still meth effect in the brain.  It's not -- there's
not a real smooth effect.  Like you might see from a
high-blood-pressure pill, there might be a smooth effect.  With
methamphetamine, your mood usually goes up and down.  Again,



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
this is based on patient behavior, not on patient drug study in
the brain.  So the -- the -- they become what we call
cyclothymic.  They become moody, and they may feel good and
depressed all within a few hours.  They may have mood swings.
So this is what this line is trying to show that individuals
when they're -- when they're coming off the meth and when they
are high and coming off, that these levels are moving up and
down.  It's not a nice, steady flow or nice, steady feeling.
Q.  Okay.  And then you've got a blue arrow; and that -- you
say the crash.  Is that what happens if you don't get any more?
A.  If -- if the individual has burned themselves out taking
methamphetamine, they have depleted their dopamine and they
can't get another source of medication or source of
methamphetamine and they have been on -- a run for several days
or several weeks, we call that a crash, meaning that the
individual just slows down and sleeps and then wants to eat a
lot of food and maybe a little bit irritable, but they feel
like they have got ten cases of the flu.  There's all different
kinds of descriptions of how people feel when they come off the
methamphetamine, and those symptoms are due to the dopamine
depletion in the brain.
Q.  And the green line is what, starting over again?
A.  Yes.  No one wants to feel that way, anxious, sad, or
depressed, so they -- that is the reward cycle.  That starts up
the -- to take the drug again.  And then this repeated cycle



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
over many times, then that's what we say starts the addiction
component of the brain change.
Q.  Sir, I'm going to show you another chart -- again for your
eyes only -- that I've marked -- we've marked as Defendant's
Exhibit D5.  Now, it's kind of hard to read, but is that a
chart that you prepared?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And is this -- have you been working on this chart for a
long time?
A.  About three or four years.  I update it every three or four
months.
Q.  So it's gone through a number of drafts; is that right?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Is this your latest draft of your chart?
A.  This is my latest one.
Q.  Would that help to illustrate the process of effect on the
brain of continuous methamphetamine usage?
A.  Yes.  This is to depict the natural history of the disease
process from the beginning to the end of methamphetamine.
         MR. TIGAR:  We offer it for demonstrative purposes.
         MR. RYAN:  No objection, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Received for that purpose.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  Now, I'm going to zoom in on parts of it.  But looking
here, we've got a yellow, a green, a magenta, and a sort of



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
burnt orange here and then an upward arrow.  What -- what
generally does this represent?
A.  As physicians, we like to categorize disease processes to
simplify for patients where they are at in that process, and it
also is used as a diagnostic tool with patients so you can show
them the graph and you ask them where you're at on this disease
process.
         This helps in making the diagnosis, patient education,
and then for treatment process.  Somebody in this stage,
obviously, is -- Stage 1 -- is not going to have as much
difficulty as the person in Stage 4 in treatment.
Q.  Right.  Now, Stage 1 of methamphetamine usage, we see some
things like stronger, alert, high energy, increased
socialization.  Those don't look all bad.
A.  No.  This is the honeymoon phase of methamphetamine.  This
is the feel-good phase.
Q.  Now, what -- a person in this phase, would they be able
to -- would they be able to go to work and work in a job?
A.  Yes.  This would be a housewife who wants to get everything
done and go to three or four meetings and be home at night when
the husband gets home and everything looks fine, the house is
cleaned up, the truck driver that may want to go extra hours or
the double-shift person that wants to work longer.  In this
phase, it increases their total performance.
Q.  How about somebody that worked in a store or an office?



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
What would their employer notice about them in this stage?
A.  They would maybe get to work earlier in the morning.  They
would get organized and get their work done.  They may be
losing weight and people around them would say, you're looking
much better.  You're -- you're trimming up.  And you get a lot
of social reinforcement in this phase.
Q.  All right.  Let's turn over now to Stage 2.  Across this
whole process -- that is to say, from a Stage 1 to the -- the
symptoms that you've talked about before such as delusions,
hallucinations -- how long does that take?  Or can it?  Within
a range?  Because I understand we're not talking about any
particular person here.  Just in your experience.
A.  In this area here, small doses, they usually do not have
hallucinosis and paranoia.  Again, depending on the genetics of
that individual and what other addictions or what other
illnesses they have, they can just be "normal," quote, unquote.
They may get delusional on a first dose.  Usually, though, that
is not true.  The delusions and paranoia usually start in the
Stage 2, to 3, to when they get their doses up to a gram or 2
grams a week.
Q.  You talked about genetics and age.  Are there certain ages
at which one is more susceptible to these adverse effects such
as delusions, hallucinations and so on?
A.  The most vulnerable time, adolescence when the brain is
trying to differentiate who it is and who the person is.  And



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
if they take medicator -- or methamphetamine during these
times, small doses can make adolescents more delusional than,
say, a 35-year-old adult.
Q.  What do you identify as the adolescent period in terms of
age?
A.  12, 13, to 17 to 18.
Q.  Okay.  And what about people in the 20's -- in their 20's?
A.  They may be able to tolerate a little bit more drug because
the brain has more maturation after age 21.
Q.  And does methamphetamine interact with other things like
painkillers?
A.  Yes.  They would -- painkillers also enhance dopamine.  So
methamphetamine would enhance -- they would enhance each other.
Q.  So if a person were taking painkillers for some chronic
condition, that interaction might occur?
A.  That would occur, yes.
Q.  Would occur.  All right.  Let's go back in to Stage 2.
Just would you go down these symptoms.  Positive reinforcement
of meth.  Is that what you were talking about before; that is,
you -- the honeymoon period?
A.  Yeah.  They -- they really got a tremendous impact on those
smaller doses, so if -- part of it is if the smaller doses
really made me feel this good, then I would want to take a lot
more so I could feel much better.  Part of that process -- this
is where the addiction phase starts, in this green area, in



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
that the brain is trying to shut down the dopamine so the
person has to take more methamphetamine to get more dopamine to
get that original euphoria.
Q.  Now, the next one you have down is stay awake for days.
Assume that -- well, I don't assume.  At some point, if you had
an all-night methamphetamine situation, does the body crave
sleep?
A.  If you're on the methamphetamine, the dopamine is going,
they wouldn't crave sleep.  The dopamine is -- is running the
person.
Q.  And if the -- the level of dopamine then decreases, would
the body crave sleep?
A.  Yeah.  As the dopamine goes down, yes, the body would want
to sleep, its normal circle.
Q.  During the time that your -- that the body is under the
influence of this drug, what happens to memory of events that
you saw during that time?
A.  There is a -- several cognitive factors that are involved.
Q.  You say cognitive factors?
A.  Cognitive or intellectual thinking --
Q.  Okay.
A.  -- higher-brain centers or aptitude, performance, may be
blurry in that they may not be able to do the things they did
yesterday, remember what they did yesterday.  Their aptitude
may not be as good as it was, say, two weeks ago or three weeks



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
ago when they get into a higher use of methamphetamine.
Q.  Now, when a person -- if a person is off the
methamphetamine and finds that there are holes in their memory,
does that happen?
A.  Yeah.  And in alcoholics, we call those blackouts, and
methamphetamine, we call them whiteouts.  And what happens like
with alcohol and other addicting drugs and with meth, the
higher brain centers aren't being contacted by this middle part
of the brain.  Now, this is not scientifically proved by a PET
scan.  It's just by clinical experience.  You will talk to
these individuals in this area here and the family will say all
these things are happening, and the individual says no, they
are not, they are not happening.  I'm not having any of that
activity.  So they may not remember events that you were over
to my house two weeks ago or you did this and this and this and
they say, no, I didn't do that, I wasn't there or you didn't
see me do that.  When this is -- this is when they are actually
tweaking or high on the methamphetamine.  So this is what we
mean by a whiteout.  In alcoholism, that would be a blackout.
Q.  And is a person who has had such an experience more or less
subject to suggestion to fill in the gaps?
A.  I'm not sure I understand that -- the question.  That if
the relatives would have to fill in what happened to him that
night?
Q.  Yes, sir.



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
A.  That's -- when we do commitments, this is usually what
happens.  The relatives will say these things took place and
the person doesn't remember it.  They might have hit somebody
or choked somebody, and the family members are very afraid of
this individual and they would do a commitment on this person
to get them into treatment because they try to talk to them and
the person says, I didn't do all those things.  You're -- you
know, you've got a problem.  I don't.  So the family may commit
those individuals.  So -- by going through that process, and
the family members would have to fill in some of those gaps
that they -- they didn't remember a couple weeks ago.
Q.  So we have -- in this then, increased performance, longer
working shifts, loss of weight, hyperactive, neglects certain
duties, change of friends, obsessing, lying, memory loss;
correct?
A.  This is -- as you go from this Stage 1 into Stage 2, then
it starts increasing and it goes on to Stage 3.  So this is
where the brain starts losing function.  There is some cellular
chemical damage by the methamphetamine.  So now we're getting
into the stage where the chemistry is now changed in the brain
so the individual now is -- is presenting with signs and
symptoms of methamphetamine brain effect.  And this is a
chemical change.  This can revert back to normal when they stop
the drug.  The brain can heal.  This is still a reversible
stage of methamphetamine.



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
Q.  Now, move on to Stage 3.  And you've got another list of
symptoms: obsessive, irritable, argumentative, short tempered,
paranoia, suspicious, impaired work performance, physical
health changes, denial, making excuses, impulsive, antisocial
behavior, easily aggravated.  Now, I'm going to ask you just
about some of those.  What, in your observation, happens to the
vocabulary of the -- working vocabulary of a person that's in
this methamphetamine cycle?
A.  This area is what we call the brain dysfunction area.  It's
separated from these previous two areas.  Now a lot of areas in
their life are troubled.  And when they have these -- these are
not all of them.  These are the main ones that people come in
or families bring them in, they have the multiple signs and
symptoms; and this is the most common ones they have.  And
this, again, is a -- this is an area where there is cellular
damage.  It may or may not be reversible at this point.
Q.  Okay.  But I was asking, you sir, what happens to
vocabulary.  How -- how do people start to talk?
A.  The vocabulary would get more narrow perspective, because
what is thought with PET scans -- and there are some clinical
work with cognitive and memory when -- when people are on
addictive drugs, it kind of bicircuits the cortex where all
your vocabulary and a lot of your memory are, that now, the --
the meth and addictive drug works in the brain stem and goes to
the frontal part of the lobe and kind of bypasses some of these



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
other areas.  And these are the kinds of signs and symptoms
they have, so their language gets pretty narrow into all --
where all these areas are.  The -- as the methamphetamine takes
over the brain function, they lose their social, family, job,
vocabulary, aptitude, intelligence, and they get pretty narrow.
And what their world revolves around is getting the drug in
their life on a daily basis.
Q.  And by you saying "narrowing the vocabulary," what kinds of
vocabulary are you likely to hear then?
A.  Well, there's -- I guess in American language, you get more
little four letter words or swear words, easier to come out.
When we see them in the hospital, they -- they will swear at me
or call me names.  They may not be able to carry a -- a
conversation about, you know, what they were doing two years
ago if they were in a job or school.  They may not be able to
carry a good conversation about what they do, how they did it,
about finances, so they are -- in my impression, their language
gets very narrow, to short sentences, not long elaborate
sentences, and to what our clinical knowledge of this is that
it impairs the cortical thinking process.
Q.  And what happens to their lifestyle, their house, their
dress, their appearance?
A.  All these become not important as begin -- remember, we
talked about the brain wants the drug, so that's the priority
when they get up.  And what we -- we've done videotapes of



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
houses where people run methamphetamine, and they have -- their
boundaries become less in the household.  They don't do the
normal things around the house.  It may be neglected.  It may
not be clean.  They may tear out cupboards and tear out floors.
They may tear receptacles out of the sockets because they think
they are bugged or they're paranoid.  They may disconnect tubes
from the furnace because they think there's people in them,
watching them.  They may stack their clothes different parts of
the house.  They don't use dressers.
         There may be broken windows and it's wintertime, and
there's heat going out the window.  And they just turn up the
furnace.  They don't fix the window.  There's what we -- when
we do these videotapes or take pictures -- this is like through
child protective services, because there may be children when
you have to prove to DHS that there's a danger and neglect of
children in these houses when the mother and father may both be
on methamphetamine.
Q.  And in your experience, has the -- have you been contacted
by the federal government, by the United States, to share your
experience with methamphetamine addiction?
A.  Yes.
Q.  In what -- when was that and what did you do?
A.  The earliest thing was a year ago, March, I got a phone
call from Janet Reno's staff who went over for like an hour,
hour and a half, some of the methamphetamine issues in Iowa.



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
And then I got a call from Senator Grassley, who's a senator
from Iowa; and in that same summer, we did a -- with the staff,
we did a whole book on methamphetamine for Iowans.
         This past spring, I talked with -- McCaffrey, the Drug
Czar, came to Des Moines.  We had a session there.  He gave a
talk.  I was asked by his staff to present -- I have about a
60-page document on methamphetamine, and some of these are
these handouts to send to their office to disperse for training
throughout the United States.
Q.  Now, in a -- in an average young person in their 20's, how
long do you expect to see it to take to get from, say, this
first stage, the honeymoon period, into the Stage 3, the
magenta, with these symptoms?  About how long a time?
A.  That's again -- that varies on the genetics and what other
addictions and what other diseases that individual has.  But
that may take just months, two to three months to six months.
Again, that's -- there's no clinical studies that say exactly.
But the shortest I've seen was a couple months, depending on
the doses they were taking.
Q.  And is it possible, if you can get somebody off the drug,
to put them back on the path of -- you know, not using it?
A.  Yes.  In those -- those individuals that have short-term
use, the brain cells are reversible.  They may not have
permanent damage.
         Now, if they have delusions and hallucinations,



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
usually, that means there has been some chemical damage to the
cells, so that person then may -- even though they are off the
drug for four or five years, they may get a stress in the
future.  If they've got a lot of stress in their life, they may
have a flashback of that paranoid feeling, so there is some
mild damage; but that's not going to impair their life.  They
should be able to come back and function fairly well.
Q.  And if a person was having a perception of the world during
the time that they were high on meth and an intense user, how
does the brain store that perception?  Is there a device in the
brain to get back an accurate view, or is that perception just
always going to be that way?
A.  That's never been clinical studied with methamphetamine at
this time.  In normal studies, it is very difficult to study
where memory is stored; but the new neurobiology of memory,
that there's about six places or seven places in the brain that
help store memory.  And depending on if there's damage to any
of those areas, then memory may not come back at all, or may be
dissociated.
         MR. TIGAR:  May I have a moment, your Honor?
         THE COURT:  Yes.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  And one final area, sir.  If -- if a user, along this cycle
we've seen, begins to deal the drug, either to sell it or to
give it away, is -- is that an important fact in your



                    Michael Abrams - Direct
evaluation of an individual?
A.  Yes.  This -- this means that the person is more desperate
and has now lost maybe their ability to stay on a job or stay
at work or be with working friends or partners at work; that
they are usually fired -- they don't -- usually, they aren't
fired.  They just leave their job because they know they are
not getting to work on time, their performance isn't good, so
they usually don't stay on a job.  So to make ends meet, then
they usually become not a big dealer, but they do deal the drug
because they need money and they need the drug; but also, they
develop a new set of friends.  And usually, those friends are
drug-addicted friends; so they set up a new social
relationship.  They lose all their non-drug-using friends, so
part of that morality of that group is to trade the drug and
sell back and forth and any other goods that may go along with
the drug.  There may be sexual activities that are sold or
traded with the methamphetamine, HIV, pornography.  All these
things can go on with the methamphetamine drug-selling trade to
make money.
         MR. TIGAR:  Thank you very much for coming today.
         Pass the witness.
         THE COURT:  Mr. Ryan.
         MR. RYAN:  Excuse me just a moment, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  All right.
                       CROSS-EXAMINATION



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
BY MR. RYAN:
Q.  Good morning, Dr. Abrams.  My name is Pat Ryan.  I'm the
U.S. Attorney in Oklahoma City.  How are you?
A.  Just fine.
Q.  We've not spoken.
A.  No.
Q.  And if I were to research your writings in the medical
literature under Medline Search or some other form of medical
research, would I find any?
A.  No.  I've not published anything on peer journal.
Q.  Have you written anything on the subject of
methamphetamine?
A.  Yes.  Just locally.
Q.  And what have you written on the subject of
methamphetamine?
A.  Just some of the general effects of methamphetamine that --
Q.  I'm sorry.  Excuse me.  I mean what publications have you
written in.
A.  Just the local Polk County Medical Society.
Q.  And when did you write such an article?
A.  That was last year or two.  I'm not sure what year it was.
Q.  Can you give me a year?
A.  I would say '95, '96.
Q.  And what was the subject of your article?
A.  Methamphetamine, malignant methamphetamine syndrome.  That



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
should be on a web page at Polk County Medical Society.
Q.  What is the main town in Polk County?
A.  The main --
Q.  The city or town.
A.  Des Moines.
Q.  Des Moines.  Now, you've told us that one of the appeals of
methamphetamine is that it causes, in some people, a sense of
euphoria.
A.  Yes.
Q.  And an increased alertness?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And you've told us that many truck drivers use
methamphetamines; is that true?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And they don't move on to these Stages 2, 3, and 4 like
you've told us about, do they?
A.  Some do, yes.
Q.  But many don't; is that right?
A.  That's true, yes.
Q.  I mean, it's highly variable?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And so when you were answering questions about it moving --
you know, it takes three months to go from Stage 1 to Stage 3
or Stage 2 to Stage 4, you're talking about in some people?
A.  Correct.



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
Q.  Not in all people?
A.  Depending on what dose they stay on.
Q.  Because it's highly variable?
A.  Yes.
Q.  In fact, wouldn't you agree that a very few -- very small
percentage of people move to this Stage 4 that you spoke to us
about?
A.  All the people I see are in this stage.
Q.  I appreciate that.  You're in a different setting.  You're
in a jail setting frequently where people are in the court
system because of their meth use.  I'm talking among all users
of meth:  Wouldn't you agree that a relatively small percentage
reach this Stage 4 that you spoke of?
         MR. TIGAR:  Object to "small percentage."
         THE WITNESS:  I don't know if I can answer that.  I
don't know that answer.
         THE COURT:  Just a moment.  We have people talking
here --
         MR. TIGAR:  Objection to "relatively small
percentage," your Honor.  The question is vague.

         THE COURT:  Overruled.  You may answer.
         THE WITNESS:  The question once again?
BY MR. RYAN:
Q.  My question simply was:  Would you not agree that a
relatively small percentage of people ever reach that Stage 4



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
that you spoke to us about?
A.  It's in the -- it's in the thousands in the United States,
or more that I know of.
Q.  I understand, sir.  We have 260 million people living in
America.  My question simply is:  Would you agree that among
the people that ever used meth, a relatively small percentage
reach this Stage 4 that you've spoken to us about?
A.  If we say that there's probably 4 million people that we
know are on the drug and maybe 10 to 20 percent of those are
Stage 3 and 4, that would be a correct answer.
Q.  All right.  That's -- that's all I was asking about.  10 to
20 percent are in Stage 3 or 4.  Now, what part of that
percentage is in 4, as opposed to 3?
A.  I would not have -- there's not been a clinical study that
I -- that I know of.
Q.  It's certainly smaller than 10 or 20 percent?
A.  Yeah.  It would be a smaller amount than 20 percent,
definitely.
Q.  You've also told us, I believe -- you've said that -- did
you say that methamphetamine was addictive?
A.  Yes.  By the reinforcement system.
Q.  Now, it's not physically addictive, is it?
A.  Physically is -- "physically" and "psychologically" are
older terms, and the newer terms are trying to -- any drug that
reinforces in the brain is a -- a drug that the brain wants



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
back again.
Q.  Is methamphetamine physically addictive?
A.  You'd have to define what that means.
Q.  You're not familiar with that term?
A.  I don't use that term anymore.  That was an older medical
term.
Q.  It is a current medical term, though?  It's used every day,
is it not?
A.  Usually, it's a term that means with people with narcotic
addiction or alcohol, that they would have a seizure when they
come off the drug.
Q.  All right.  And using that definition, is methamphetamine
physically addictive?
A.  Not usually for that drug.
Q.  And you've also told us that adolescents are most
vulnerable; correct?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Now, you've told us that low-intensity -- or have you --
low-intensity abusers or users of methamphetamine, they
frequently swallow it or snort it?  Is that what you said?
A.  That's one way they can take it, yes.
Q.  And that's the lower end of the abuse cycle; is that
correct?
A.  Those individuals in the low end probably would just snort
it or take it by mouth.



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
Q.  I mean, the higher users would more likely inject it than a
low user?
A.  Smoking and injecting are probably the two best ways to get
higher amounts of it in the body the quickest.
Q.  So you would typically find with the high user injecting or
smoking and the low user would be more in the snorting range;
is that correct?
A.  The trend now is for smoking, for kids to start off smoking
now.
Q.  So you would not agree with what I just said?
A.  Yeah.  Just in the last year or two, there's more available
drug to smoke and it's easier to smoke it.
Q.  Have you -- you were telling us about the fact that the
Department of Justice had once called you.  Have you ever been
listed as a reference for any publication by the Department of
Justice?
A.  Not that I know of, no.
Q.  Or by any publication by the Drug Czar?
A.  Other than just the work that we did, no.
Q.  Excuse me?
A.  Other than just sending the materials that they wanted.
Q.  But if we had the Drug Czar's publications here, would we
find your name?
A.  I don't know if it would be on there or not for --
Q.  Have you ever met the Drug Czar?



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
A.  It was in Des Moines.  We were at a conference and we ate
breakfast with him.
Q.  You met him at a breakfast?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Have you ever been a paid consultant of the Drug Czar?
A.  Not a paid consultant, no.
Q.  Now, you talked briefly about blackouts.  And you've used
the term, Well, with drugs like methamphetamine, it's a
"whiteout."  What you're really talking about is a loss of
consciousness; right?
A.  It's a loss of memory.
Q.  For that period.
A.  They --
Q.  For the period that they are unconscious?
A.  No.  It's -- it's a loss of memory.  They are not
unconscious.  They may be doing things and acting things and
normal activity, but they don't remember what they have done.
Q.  All right.  So it's just a forgetting for a period of time?
A.  Right.
Q.  All right.  Now, I think you've also told us that the
effect of this drug differs widely with the person.
A.  Yes.
Q.  The genetics enter into that, family history enters into
it?
A.  Yes.



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
Q.  Most clearly, the dose that they take enters into it;
correct?
A.  Yes.  Yes.
Q.  But without knowing all of those factors, one could not
make any supposition about what it might do to a given person;
fair?
A.  On low doses.
Q.  I mean, if you don't know their genetics, you don't know
the family history, you don't know the amount that they are
taking, there's no way to generalize as to what the effect will
be on a given person?
A.  I think I understand your question.
Q.  Is that fair, sir?
A.  Yes.
Q.  There have been very few studies, I gather, to determine
these effects?
A.  Correct.
Q.  And you talked about a psychosis that sometimes develops,
but you would agree with me that at least 96 percent of the
time, this psychosis would clear up in a -- in a matter of days
or a couple weeks?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Now, you spoke of -- when were you first employed in this
case?
A.  I -- it was last year sometime.  I don't know the exact



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
date.
Q.  I'm sorry.  I couldn't hear what you said.
A.  Last year sometime.  I don't know the exact date.
Q.  Last year being 1996?
A.  No.  It would -- it would be '97.
Q.  Can you help us with a month?
A.  I -- I have so many things going like in practice, I
wouldn't -- I can't give you an exact time.
Q.  I'm not asking for a precise date.
A.  Summer of '97.
Q.  Summer.  And what were you asked to do?  To talk about
methamphetamine?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Okay.  And one of the things that you did right off the bat
was you contacted an expert in methamphetamine.  Is that fair?
A.  Yes.  I do that on a regular basis.
Q.  All right.  But you're not a psychiatrist; correct?
A.  No.
Q.  You don't -- you're not a neurologist?
A.  No.
Q.  You're -- your training is in family practice?
A.  Family practice and emergency medicine.
Q.  And you contacted a Dr. Ellenwood; is that correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And that was on September 16 of 1997?



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
A.  Right.
Q.  And who is Dr. Ellenwood?
A.  He's a physician.
Q.  He's a psychiatrist?
A.  Yes.  Right.
Q.  And where does he practice?
A.  I think in North Carolina.
Q.  At Duke University?
A.  Yes.
Q.  You called him?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Because you wanted to know more about what Dr. Ellenwood
thought about the effects of methamphetamine?
A.  Yes.  I've seen what clinical studies he had done.
Q.  Who else did you call?
A.  At NIDA.  I have -- my name is at NIDA.  I have talked with
Jerry Frankenheim in the last couple of years, trying to find
people in the United States that are doing PET scanning on
people on methamphetamine.  So what I was trying to find is the
actual research with PET scanning and how much had been done in
the United States and Japan.
Q.  You said something, I believe, in your direct testimony
about methamphetamine affecting memory.  Did I hear you
correctly?
A.  Yes.



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
Q.  Can you cite me to any study that says anything about
methamphetamine affecting memory?
A.  There's only -- there's one article recently in the Journal 
of Pediatrics that talks about memory in the last couple
months.
Q.  Do you have that with you?
A.  Not right here, no.
Q.  Dr. Ellenwood, who you called, you consider an expert;
correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Do you agree with the statement of Dr. Ellenwood to the --
is as follows:  "In spite of great individual variability,
amphetamine psychosis usually produces --"
         THE COURT:  Just a moment.
         MR. TIGAR:  If this is a learned-treatise exception,
no objection.  Is that what this is?
         MR. RYAN:  Yes, of course.
         THE COURT:  All right.  Go ahead.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q.  "In spite of great individual variability, amphetamine
psychosis usually produces a fairly distinct syndrome
characterized by delusions of persecution, ideas of reference,
visual and auditory hallucinations, changes in body image, and
hyperactivity and excitation -- ex -- e-x-i-c-a-t-i-o-n -- but
disorientation and clouding of memory are not part of the



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
picture."
A.  That was amphetamine.  That's not methamphetamine.
Q.  They are the same family, aren't they, Doctor?
A.  They are different on how they affect the brain cell.
Q.  Have you done any research on either amphetamine or
methamphetamine?
A.  Not bioscience research, no.
Q.  You -- you haven't done any bioscience research; correct?
A.  No.
Q.  You haven't done any animal studies?
A.  No.
Q.  There are no human studies?
A.  No.
Q.  And you haven't written anything on this subject except in
the Polk County Society; correct?
A.  And the document I have.
Q.  Well, Dr. Ellenwood spoke to you.  He told you, didn't he,
that there were no memory problems?
A.  I don't recall he said that.  We were -- he wanted me to
send him the cases that I had.  Maybe joint-publish something.
Q.  Did you do that?
A.  I haven't done that yet, no.
Q.  Now, you also told us that you were board certified in
addictive medicine; is that correct?
A.  Yes.



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
Q.  Now, many of us are familiar with the term "board
certification."  We know doctors who are board certified in
obstetrics and gynecology.  I'm sure you do.
A.  Yes.
Q.  They are board certified in neurology; right?  You know
people like that?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Board certified in psychiatry or neurology?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And that is -- that's the kind of certification that we
know of as board certification -- is done by who?
A.  By the American Board.
Q.  Excuse me?
A.  The American Board Association.  It certifies individuals.
Q.  American Board of Medical Specialities, isn't it?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Now, is that what you're talking about when you say you're
board certified?
A.  I'm -- the board certification is different with addiction
medicine, in that it doesn't have a residency.
Q.  And you're not sort of -- there's no such designation by
the American Board of Medical Specialities, is there?
A.  We -- to my knowledge, the Addiction Medicine Society is
aiming toward that goal.
Q.  But there's not one currently, is there?



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
A.  Right.
Q.  Now, I looked through your resum‚ that was -- Mr. Tigar was
kind enough to provide; and it does talk about a Polk County
Medical Society bulletin of April '96, styled, "Malignant
Methamphetamine Addiction Syndrome."
A.  Yes.
Q.  Now, is that the article you were telling me about earlier?
A.  Right.
Q.  Now, you didn't write that article, though, did you,
Doctor?
A.  Yes.
         MR. RYAN:  Well, may I approach the witness, your
Honor?
         THE COURT:  Yes.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q.  Let me show you.  It's styled, "The Bulletin, April 1996."
A.  Yes.
Q.  And is that the article you're speaking of?
A.  Yeah.
Q.  Okay.  This is an article about you, isn't it?
A.  Some of it, yes.
Q.  Did you write the article about you that appeared in the
Polk County bulletin?
A.  Well, they asked me to fill in what I've been doing in this
area.



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
Q.  This is certainly not a research article?
A.  No.  This is just a news article on the syndrome, to bring
it to attention of the Society and the physicians.
Q.  Now, you used the terms -- just a moment.
         You used the term," Malignant methamphetamine
addiction syndrome.  Did I hear you correctly?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Well, I brought a copy of a medical dictionary with me,
Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary.
A.  Yes.
Q.  You're familiar with that, aren't you?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Would I find that term, "malignant methamphetamine
addiction syndrome," in this dictionary?
A.  No.
Q.  Would I find that term in any of the materials by the Drug
Czar?
A.  Not by the Drug Czar.  The stuff that I sent them, it would
be in there.
Q.  Excuse me?
A.  The stuff that I sent them, it was in there.
Q.  That's your terminology that you've coined?
A.  Yes.  Yes.
Q.  That's not terminology that's used by the Office of the
National Drug Policy?



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
A.  Not to my knowledge, no.
Q.  Or by the Drug Czar?
A.  Right.
Q.  Or by Dorland's Medical Dictionary?
A.  Right.
Q.  Excuse me.  You've also used a number of other terms:
progressive methamphetamine addiction syndrome.  Did I hear
that correctly?
A.  Yes.
Q.  I wouldn't find that in here, either, would I?
A.  No.
Q.  In the Dorland's?
         "Methamphetamine frontal limbic psychosis."  That's
another term you use?
A.  Right.
Q.  I wouldn't find that in here?
A.  That's not in a dictionary.
Q.  Progressive violethal syndrome?
A.  Yes.
Q.  I wouldn't find that in Dorland's.
A.  No.
Q.  But you are -- are you not, Doctor, familiar with the
DSM-IV?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Tell us what the DSM-IV is.



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
A.  It's a coding for psychiatrists to list behaviors and by
going over thousands of different patients with different
diseases, to codify them into a diagnostic terminology that
physicians can make history and physical exam or mostly history
and behaviors and then put a diagnosis on that individual.
Q.  It is the authoritative source, is it not, for the
diagnosis of psychiatric conditions?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And it has a section in here that deals with substance-
related disorders?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Is that correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And it has a section in here on amphetamine-related
disorders?
A.  Yes.
Q.  You're familiar with this document, aren't you?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Most physicians are?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And none of the terms that you've used here are in this
DSM-IV, are they?
A.  No.
Q.  There's no such disease described in the DSM-IV of these
amphetamine-induced disorders that you've told us about?



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
A.  There is amphetamine disorders listed in that book.
Q.  Not the ones you're talking about?
A.  Not methamphetamine, no.
Q.  There's nothing in here that talks about memory loss
associated with amphetamine or methamphetamine use, is there,
Doctor?
A.  I would have to look under the memory section to see some
of those defects.  But no, I don't believe methamphetamine is
listed in that -- in that document.  That's three years old.
         MR. RYAN:  May I approach, your Honor?
         THE COURT:  Yes.
BY MR. RYAN:
Q.  There's a listing of symptomatology on page 312 of the
DSM-IV.  Would you like to review that to see if there's
anything in there about memory loss?
A.  I would comment that from my understanding, there would be
not anything listed in this textbook at this age on
methamphetamine.
Q.  When you say, "this age," now, this is the -- the current
DSM-IV, is it not?
A.  That's for psychiatry.
Q.  Yes.  It's the current -- it's not just for psychiatrists.
It's for anybody who is in the business of diagnosing mental
disorders?
A.  Right.



                     Michael Abrams - Cross
Q.  And this is the current version of that book; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  DSM-IV.  And you told us that methamphetamine use has been
around -- you saw it back in the early 70's, I think you told
us.
A.  Yes.  It's been around several years, yes.
         MR. RYAN:  That's all I have, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Mr. Tigar.  Redirect.
         MR. RYAN:  Just a moment.
                     REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  I'm going to place on the monitor here for your eyes only
what I've marked as Defendant's Exhibit D13.  Now, is that a
study of the United States Department of Justice National Drug
Intelligence Center?
A.  Yes.  This is a document that they publish.
Q.  Okay.  And when would -- from December 1996?
A.  Yes.  Correct.
         MR. TIGAR:  We offer it, your Honor.
         MR. RYAN:  We object, your Honor.  If it's used as a
treatise of some type, he may refer to it.  I object to its
use --
         MR. TIGAR:  803(8)(c), your Honor.
         THE COURT:  As an admission?
         MR. TIGAR:  No.  As a study pursuant to authority



                   Michael Abrams - Redirect
granted by law.  I can show the Court the exhibit.
         THE COURT:  All right.  I'll take a look at it.
         MR. TIGAR:  The italicized words.
         THE COURT:  Objection sustained.  It may be used, of
course.
         MR. TIGAR:  May I inquire about it, your Honor,
admitting it under the learned treatise exception for --
         THE COURT:  Using it, but not admitting.
         MR. TIGAR:  To use it, but not admit it, yes, your
Honor, thank you.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  Are you familiar, sir, with this 1996 study by the United
States Department of Justice?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And did the Department of Justice consult a number of
physicians and law enforcement officers about the effects of
something called D-methamphetamine?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And that was the results published in December 1996?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Now, will you tell the jury, please, what is the difference
between amphetamine and D-methamphetamine or meth.
A.  Methamphetamine means -- the methyl part means that there's
another molecule that's hooked on to the amphetamine.  It's a
methyl group like one carbon and three hydrogen ions -- or



                   Michael Abrams - Redirect
atoms.
Q.  Okay.  How does that change what it does to your brain?
A.  One of the key things is that it makes it get into the
blood-brain barrier.  Goes across the blood-brain barrier much
more readily than the amphetamine does.  The brain soaks up a
lot more methamphetamine, as opposed to amphetamine.  So the
amphetamine works more peripherally in the body, and the
methamphetamine at a normal dose works better in the brain than
on the body, because it -- the methyl group makes it cross what
we call the "blood-brain barrier" easier.
Q.  And does your work -- you said you began to be concerned
about methamphetamine in 1992 and '93.  Do you remember that?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And why is it that you have, based on your seeing thousands
of patients, developed a vocabulary and description of
methamphetamine usage that is different from what you found
when you looked in the DSM, the -- whatever that's --
Diagnostic and Statistical Manual?
A.  There wasn't anything that described what we were seeing
clinically.  The terms didn't fit.  The signs and symptoms
weren't all laid out nicely like it is for amphetamine and
cocaine.  So the -- the methamphetamine, because of the
literally hundreds and thousands that we were seeing in Iowa, I
was being called from multiple areas to say what's going on;
and I had to do as much reading as I could and try to codify



                   Michael Abrams - Redirect
what methamphetamine was doing to people as opposed to what
amphetamine did back in the 60's and the 70's.
Q.  Now, did -- in this study, do you agree with this
statement:  "Adverse psychological consequences of
D-methamphetamine abuse can include a prolonged psychosis.
This psychosis called amphetamine delusional disorder or
amphetamine psychosis adds to the extreme paranoia, both visual
and auditory hallucinations and often ends in hysteria"?  Do
you agree with that statement?
A.  Yes.  That's a correct statement.
Q.  And do you agree with the statement that "high doses or
chronic use of D-methamphetamine increases nervousness,
irritability and paranoia"?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And do you agree with the statement that is quoted in here,
"Ronald K. Siegel in his book, Whispers:  The Voice of Paranoia
details seemingly bizarre ceremony -- scenarios -- excuse me --
in which methamphetamine users believe they are being followed
by the police, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Central
Intelligence Agency and even the Mafia.  However, these
scenarios are not unusual when dealing with methamphetamine
abusers"?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Do you agree with that?
A.  Yes.



                   Michael Abrams - Redirect
Q.  Now, in this study that the Department of Justice did, did
the study focus on particular places where abuser populations
were high?
A.  I believe so, yes.
Q.  And did the Department of Justice study describe the
phenomena of tweaking -- the binge, the tweaking and the crash?
A.  Yes.  I think this was the first publication -- medical
publication from -- from the Justice Department that talked
about tweaking.  Tweaking and methamphetamine psychosis was a
common thing that police were seeing like in L.A. and San
Diego, Arizona, certainly in Des Moines, Iowa; but there wasn't
any government document up until this time that I'm aware of
that published what tweaking as a methamphetamine -- that
officers need to be trained so they would be able to deal with
this type of patient on methamphetamine.
Q.  And the -- what is the National Drug Intelligence Center of
the U.S. Department of Justice that published this study on the
effects of D-methamphetamine?
A.  What is that department?
Q.  Yes.  What is the National Drug Intelligence Center?
A.  I'm not sure what it is or where it's at.  I'm -- I get
publications from them.
Q.  All right.  And, Doctor, if we were going to, based on your
clinical experience, look at -- is a part of your job to go out
and talk to people who are skeptical about whether these



                   Michael Abrams - Redirect
effects that you've described are really happening?
A.  I -- none of the people I talk to are skeptical.  They see
it in their communities, and they want information how to deal
with it.
Q.  And when -- do people come to you and -- and ask you about
symptoms or signs that might show that someone was abusing
methamphetamine?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And is staying up all night more times than you can
remember such a sign?
A.  That's one of the common signs, yes.
Q.  Is quitting a job suddenly over a minor dispute with an
employer such a sign?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Is lying to --
         MR. RYAN:  Your Honor, excuse me.  I object to this
line of questioning.
         THE COURT:  Overruled.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  Is lying to your employer about why you want to take time
off such a sign?
A.  Well, they -- the employers usually say they make all kinds
of excuses.
         MR. TIGAR:  Thank you very much, Doctor.  I have
nothing further.
         THE COURT:  Any recross?
         MR. RYAN:  Sure, your Honor.
                      RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. RYAN:
Q.  Doctor, earlier, on the -- when I was speaking with you,
you told us that DSM manual did not include disorders related
to methamphetamine.  Do you recall that testimony?
A.  Yeah.  May not relate what -- what I was talking about.
Q.  But methamphetamine is certainly included within the
DSM-IV?
A.  They are listed.  Some -- some of the signs and symptoms
are listed.
Q.  Well, DSM-IV sets forth the signs and symptoms that are
medically recognized by the -- by the Psychiatric Association
for these various substances; correct?
A.  That would be correct, yes.
Q.  And among those are not included any of this business about
lying or memory disorders, is it?
A.  Not at this time, no.
Q.  And there's not a word in this government publication that
Mr. Tigar was talking to you about about anyone lying or having
memory problems, is there?
A.  Not in that document, no.
Q.  And this document doesn't include any of your terms that
you've told us about today, either, does it?



                    Michael Abrams - Recross
A.  No.
         MR. RYAN:  That's all I have, your Honor.
         MR. TIGAR:  May I?
         THE COURT:  All right.
                     REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  Doctor, in this article from the United States Department
of Justice, do you remember reading the following case study:
"For example, at a Narcotic Enforcement Conference in Oregon,
Lieutenant Ed Mayer of the Jackson County Narcotic Enforcement
Team described an encounter he had with a methamphetamine
abuser who called Mayer's office from a cellular telephone.
The drug abuser --"
         MR. RYAN:  Excuse me.  Excuse me.  I object to this
line.
         THE COURT:  It's in the publication.  It came from the
Department of Justice.
         MR. RYAN:  Well, there's no question about that, your
Honor --
         THE COURT:  Well, he can read from it then.
         MR. RYAN:  All right.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  "The drug abuser was driving on Interstate 5 and sounded
quite rational, and he said he wanted to file a compliant about
one of Mayer's narcotic enforcement officers who was following



                   Michael Abrams - Redirect
him everywhere he went.  Slowly, the drug abuser's voice began
to sound panicky and he begged Mayer to tell his officer to get
off the car roof.  Mayer could hear the driver swerving on the
road and slamming on his brakes, trying to shake the imaginary
officer from the car roof."
         Was that in that Department of Justice study?
A.  I remember that, yes.
         MR. TIGAR:  No further questions.
         MR. RYAN:  Nothing further, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  All right.  Is the witness excuses?
         MR. TIGAR:  Yes.  He's excused.
         THE COURT:  You may step down.  You're excused.
         We'll take our morning recess at this time, members of
the jury.  Again, one of the things, when -- I might simply
advise you of here so that you can understand a little bit
about the law of evidence, I'm not going to instruct you on the
law of evidence or try to make lawyers out of you; but, you
know, when we have used the hearsay rule at times in this case
and prevented witnesses from, over proper objection -- from
testifying by what somebody else told them, which is sort of
classic hearsay.  There are as many exceptions to the rule as
you can imagine.  And one of those is that when it comes to
opinion witnesses, people who, because of some specialized
knowledge or training or experience, can testify about
opinions, if it is consistent with the practice, the discipline
about -- that the witness follows to look at books, talk to
other people in the field, that sort of thing, then that can be
received as the bases for the opinion.  It doesn't mean that
the things that were consulted are themselves evidence.  It's
just that when a person expresses opinions in a field of
expertise, that person can testify about the things that he or
she relied on in forming opinions.
         So that's why, in the case of this witness, for
example, things that are not in evidence were referred to; and
again, what he said about them is not part of the evidence but
a part of the bases of his opinions.  So I just wanted to
explain that to you so you don't wonder why sometimes people
talk about things that were conversations with others or that
are in documents that are not in evidence.  And when there's

the reference here to treatises or learned treatises, the law
says that to the extent used or recognized by the witness, then
they can be read -- those things can be read in evidence, but
they don't become a part of the evidence.
         That is the document themselves.  The document itself
does not come into evidence, or the book or whatever.
         So we're now going to take a 20-minute recess; and of
course, a part of the law of evidence is that you have to --
and the law, the procedural rules of the court are that you
must not discuss the case now.  Wait till it's completed and
you've heard it all.  And of course, continue to avoid anything
that is not in evidence that could influence you in the case.
         So you're excused now.  20 minutes.
    (Jury out at 10:09 a.m.)
         THE COURT:  Okay.  10:30.
    (Recess at 10:10 a.m.)
    (Reconvened at 10:30 a.m.)
         THE COURT:  Be seated, please.
         May I have counsel for a moment.
    (At the bench:)
    (Bench Conference 112B1 is not herein transcribed by court
order.  It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)




























    (In open court:)
    (Jury in at 10:32 a.m.)
         MR. TIGAR:  Call Jeffery Hayes.
         THE COURT:  Thank you.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right
hand, please.
    (Jeffery Hayes affirmed.)
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please.
         Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
         THE WITNESS:  Jeffery C. Hayes, H-A-Y-E-S.
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you.
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  Mr. Hayes, you are a special agent of the FBI?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  How long have you been?
A.  17 1/2 years.
Q.  What was your education before coming to the FBI?
A.  I have an undergraduate degree in social justice.
Q.  From?
A.  Lewis University.
Q.  Where is that, sir?
A.  Lockport, Illinois.
Q.  Directing your attention to 1995, April, were you assigned



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
to the OKBOMB Task Force?
A.  Yes, I was.
Q.  Did there come a time when you were assigned to a study of
fragments of plastic?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  When was that?
A.  It would have been in January of this year.
Q.  January of 1997?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Have you -- and in that assignment, did you talk to a
Mr. Theodore Udell?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And who gave you the assignment?
A.  Scott Mendeloff.
Q.  He was a member of the prosecution team, a lawyer?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  What were you assigned to do?
A.  I was to contact high-density-polyethylene drum
manufacturers in an effort to determine whether or not the
chemical composition of Smurfit barrels was unique to that
particular product.
Q.  Well, let's take that one item at a time.  You had some
fragments of plastic.  Correct?
A.  Correct.
Q.  How many fragments of plastic did you have?



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
A.  I have no idea.
Q.  Were the fragments of plastic in your custody?  Did you
have them with you?
A.  No.
Q.  Well, were there more than 100 fragments that you were
concerned with?
A.  I can't give you an exact number.
Q.  At any rate, you were not present at a time when FBI
Agent -- or someone in the FBI laid out a bunch of plastic
fragments on a table for Mr. Udell to look at; correct?
A.  I was present when that happened on more than one occasion.
Q.  And when was the first time you were present when a bunch
of fragments were laid out on a table for Mr. Udell to look at?
A.  Early summer of this year, I believe.
Q.  And how many fragments were there laid out on the table?
A.  There were -- again, I can't give you an exact number.
There were three bags containing multiple pieces.
Q.  Were you ever present at a time when dozens and dozens of
plastic fragment pieces were laid out on a table?
A.  No.
Q.  Okay.  Was it your understanding that the pieces that were
laid out there to look at, the three bags, all contained
Smurfit plastic?
A.  Yes.
Q.  So your job was to call up some drum manufacturers and see



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
about whether the Smurfit plastic package was unique; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  You were never assigned to look and see if there were some
other fragments also recovered -- might match somebody else's
drums; is that right?
A.  That's correct.
Q.  Just Smurfit?
A.  Just Smurfit.
Q.  And specifically not Van Leer?
A.  Specifically, yes.
Q.  Now, what was your understanding as to why you were only
selecting drum manufacturers?
A.  Well, initially that's all we concentrated on; but that was
expanded later on in the study.
Q.  All right.  Now, how many people did you interview in
connection with this activity?
A.  Well over 50.
Q.  Did you make -- you know what an FBI -- a Form FD302 is; is
that right, sir?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  How many FD302's did you make, reports of interview, of
these interviews?
A.  None.
Q.  Did anyone tell you why you should not make any FD302
reports of interviews of the 50 interviews that you conducted



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
in this connection?
A.  I asked Mr. Mendeloff how he wanted me to report the
information that I was gleaning from the conversations I had
with these manufacturers.  He told me to put it in a chart
form, not to provide any FD302's.
Q.  Now, was Mr. Mendeloff present during any of your
interviews?
A.  No.
Q.  These interviews were conducted in person, or by telephone?
A.  Telephonically.
Q.  You're aware that telephone interviews in this case are
often reduced to FBI 302's, are you not?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And how many FBI FD302's and inserts have been generated in
conjunction with this investigation?
A.  Thousands.
Q.  About 30,000?
A.  Approximately.
Q.  And do you know how many times the FBI FD302 has been used
to memorialize or to reflect a telephone interview?
A.  No, I don't.
Q.  A couple?  Do you know within -- I mean is it a couple
thousand or however many?
A.  It would just be speculation on my part.
Q.  Now, would there be a practice -- that is, could we go into



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
the database and if we put in the word "telephonically," would
we then retrieve FBI 302's that were conducted of telephone
interviews?
A.  It's possible.
Q.  Now, you say that you started out looking at drum
manufacturers.  Right?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Now, did Mr. Mendeloff give you any explanation as to why
you were not to do FD302's?
A.  No.
Q.  Of these interviews?
A.  No.
Q.  And did you question his decision?
A.  No, I didn't.
Q.  Were you aware at that time that FBI 302's would be turned
over to the defense?
A.  Oh, yes.
Q.  So that by not making them, you were not generating any
records that would in the normal course be turned over to the
defense; is that correct?
A.  No, sir, that's not correct.
Q.  What is correct, then?  What's wrong with it?
A.  I'm assuming that you have copies of the chart that I
produced for Mr. Udell to utilize in contacting the various
manufacturers that I contacted.



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
Q.  And do you know when -- you're assuming that that's the
case.  Do you have any knowledge, sir, as to when the
Government turned over your chart to the defense?
A.  No, I don't.
Q.  Was it your expectation that your chart would be turned
over to the defense before Mr. Udell and Mr. Tikuisis
testified?
A.  I would assume.
Q.  And why did you assume that to be the case?
A.  I would just assume that you were provided discovery,
everything that we had.
Q.  Did you participate in any decisions as to whether or not
we were going to get it and when we were going to get it?
A.  No.
Q.  So if we didn't get it, that wasn't your doing; correct?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Are you a plastics expert, sir?
A.  Far from it, sir.
Q.  And so you didn't have any experience with the chemical
composition of plastics; correct?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Now, in your study, you say you began by studying drum
manufacturers; correct?
A.  By contacting them, yes.  Those that produced
natural-colored, high-density-polyethylene --



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
Q.  Right.
A.  -- drums.
Q.  Because you had some natural-color polyethylene drums that
had been recovered from Mr. Nichols' house; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  You had two made by Smurfit?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And two made by Van Leer?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Were you aware that the FBI also sent agents out into the
field to see if drums like this could be bought in the open
market?
A.  Subsequent to my involvement in this, yes.
Q.  Did you participate in that process?
A.  No, I didn't.
Q.  All right.  Did you have any knowledge as to whether
recycled drums of this kind could be just bought at a recycling
center?
A.  No.
Q.  Now, were you aware at the time you started the study
that -- of the different kinds of high-density polyethylene?
A.  No.
Q.  Well, how did you set up your study?  What did you decide
to do?
A.  Well, I was given a list of ingredients that Smurfit uses



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
in their manufacturing process, specific range of melt-flow
index, an antioxidant package, an ultraviolet stabilizer
package; and apparently they use calcium carbonate as a tracer
in their manufacturer process.
Q.  So the four things you're worried about are melt index --
correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  High-density polyethylene, you understand comes in all
sorts of melt index ranges; correct?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Depending on the use, it has to melt at a certain point so
that it can be molded in certain ways; is that your
understanding?
A.  I came to learn that, yes.
Q.  And then the antioxidant:  That's to prevent the effects of
oxygen on the process; correct?  There are chemicals that are
used for that?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Then the UV thing -- that's to prevent damage from
ultraviolet light to the content or the plastic?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Then you say calcium carbonate.  That's what you call a
tracer or a filler.  That's what you learned?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And the calcium carbonate is in there -- did you understand



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
that it has the function of helping us to figure out how much
of the antioxidant UV package is present in the drum?  It's
kind of a measuring stick?
A.  That's my understanding, yes.
Q.  Now, did you also understand that polyethylene --
high-density polyethylene is used for a lot of things besides
drums?
A.  Yes, it is.
Q.  Included in that are medical bins; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  There are certain products that are used in connection with
horse stalls; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  There is pipe that carries gas; correct?
A.  I don't know about that one.  I don't recall listing that
one.
Q.  But you started to make telephone calls; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  How did you set up your data in order to know who to call?
A.  Well, initially I was provided with a list of Smurfit
competitors -- that is, drum manufacturers that made a similar
product -- and also a roster from the Plastic Drum Institute
listening -- listing drum manufacturers.
Q.  Now, the -- Smurfit gave you a list of their competitors?
A.  Yes.



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
Q.  And that was Mr. Udell that did that?
A.  Well, actually, I got that from Scott Mendeloff.  I'm
assuming it came from Mr. Udell, but it was provided to me --
Q.  So you assume it came from Mr. Udell.  You don't know.
Some lawyer gave it to you.  Correct?
A.  A lawyer gave it to me, but it was a fax copy with
Smurfit's fax line on it.
Q.  All right.  And did you get a list of questions from
Mr. Udell?
A.  No.
Q.  Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Udell providing a list of
questions to the FBI?
A.  Not that I recall.
Q.  Okay.  Well, with this -- the list that you got that you
saw came from Smurfit was of manufacturers.  Correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Did it already have some information on it, or was that
just something you were to start with?
A.  By "information," what do you mean?
Q.  Information about the contents of these competitors'
products.
A.  Oh, no.  There was no information regarding their products.
Q.  In what form was the list?  Was it typed, or printed, or
what?
A.  One was handwritten or hand-printed, and one was typed.



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
Q.  Okay.  I'm going to show you now this document --
         MR. TIGAR:  If I may approach, your Honor?
         THE COURT:  Yes.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  -- and ask:  Is that the list?
A.  No.  This is my handwriting.
         MR. MEARNS:  Okay.  Mr. Tigar, may I have just the
reference?
    (Discussion off the record between Mr. Tigar and
Mr. Mearns.)
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  Is that the list?
A.  Um --
Q.  Or part of it?
A.  Yes, it is.
Q.  So when you got something from Mr. Mendeloff, it didn't
have any information on it about what was in these drums or in
these plastics; correct?
A.  Correct.
Q.  So what's the next thing you do after you get the list?
A.  I started calling the companies on the list.
Q.  And did you call an outfit called Florida Drum?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  Now, who did you speak to at Florida Drum?
A.  I'd have to look at my notes to recall each individual that



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
I contacted, each point of contact.
Q.  Which of your notes would you need to look at, sir?
A.  Probably all of them, because there are a number of lists
that I made that were initial contacts and then subsequent
contacts.
Q.  All right.
A.  We can start with the list that you had from Smurfit, if
you like.
Q.  From Smurfit?  All right.
A.  Okay.
Q.  Does that refresh your recollection?
A.  Yes.  I talked to Dave Miller, Production Manager.
Q.  So you talked to somebody named Dave Miller, the Production
Manager, and you just wrote "Dave Miller, Production Manager,"
in the margin; correct?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Now, is it -- would you agree with me that you didn't make
a note of the date on which you talked to this Dave Miller?
A.  I would agree with that.
Q.  And do you remember the date on which you talked to him?
A.  Again, the project was started in late January and
continued on over several months.
Q.  And you have -- within that several-month period, you have
no idea when you talked to him; is that right?
A.  Well, if that was the first list, I probably talked to him



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
on either the 31st of January or the 1st of February, if those
were workdays.
Q.  And you found out that Florida -- where is Florida Drum
based?
A.  I don't recall.
Q.  Would it refresh your recollection if I said Pine Bluff,
Arkansas?
A.  Sounds right.
Q.  Okay.  Now, you found out they used calcium carbonate in
their drums; correct?
A.  I'd have to refer to the master list on that.  I talked to
so many people, I don't have total recall as to what particular
chemical is in their particular products.
Q.  Well, let's go on to the next.  We'll get to the list in a
while.  You called a number of different people that had been
listed; correct?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Now, did you then wind up calling manufacturers of the
actual resin?
A.  Yes.
Q.  You called -- did you call Nova Chemicals?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  And you received from them a list, did you not, of people
to whom they supply materials and who make drums out of them;
correct?



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
A.  That's correct.
Q.  And you got that from those people up in chemical -- Nova
Chemicals?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Now, did you contact all of the people that make drums with

Nova Chemical resin?
A.  I believe I did.
Q.  Did you contact anybody that makes anything else out of
high-density polyethylene using Nova Chemical resin, other than
drum manufacturers?
A.  I believe I did.
Q.  Now, how many people did they -- were on the list that they
sent you from Nova Chemicals?  Do you remember?
A.  No, I don't.
Q.  Well, do you remember how many people, customers of Nova
Chemical, you contacted out of a list that they sent you?
A.  Not specifically.  I would have contacted all of them, but
I don't remember how many.
Q.  Now, did you contact Mobil Chemicals?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And are they a resin manufacturer?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Did you contact all of the customers of Mobil Chemicals?
A.  As far as I know, I did.
Q.  And did you contact Union Carbide?



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  Are they a resin manufacturer?
A.  Yes, they are.
Q.  Did you contact all of the customers of Union Carbide?
A.  Well, when you say "all of the customers," I'm sure they
sell other products than natural resin.  But the natural-resin
customers, I contacted.
Q.  And during what period of time did you ask Nova Chemicals
to supply you their customer lists?  For what period of time?
A.  During the time frame when they were manufacturing that
specific resin, which would have been -- I think they started
manufacturing that in December of 1991 up until the date of the
bombing.
Q.  Well, the specific resin involved:  Isn't it a fact that
that had to do with what Smurfit used to make barrels?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Well, the specific resin was one that was destined for
Smurfit; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Were you aware that the additives that were added to that
resin had been in general use for many years prior to 1991?
A.  No.
Q.  Did you know how long the ultraviolet additive, Tinuvin
622, had been in general use?
A.  No.



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
Q.  Did you know how long a time a high-density-polyethylene
item like a barrel or a milk crate or a stall liner or a
Medibin or a pipe that carries natural gas or any of that would
last in normal usage?
A.  I have no idea.
Q.  So you only asked Nova Resin for a list of their customers
beginning in 1991; correct?
A.  During the time frame for that particular type of natural
resin.
Q.  Whatever your understanding -- You say, "during the time
frame for that particular type of natural resin."  What's the
basis for your information that that's the time frame?  Who
told you that?
A.  Could have been Mr. Udell or Mr. Tikuisis.  I don't recall
which one.
Q.  So -- and you didn't make a note of your interviews so that
you would be able to have some record of who it was that told
you that; correct?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Now, during what period of time did you ask Union Carbide
for their customer list?
A.  I'm not certain.  We went back quite a few years.  It could
have been late 80's to present during the time.
Q.  Is it 1980 -- and did you find out that they had sold resin
to a number of people?



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
A.  Yes.
Q.  All right.  Did you call all those people?
A.  I believe I did.
Q.  And how many of them were there?
A.  Again, I don't recall.
Q.  More than a dozen?
A.  Union Carbide, around a dozen, 10, 14, I don't know.
Q.  And how many customers did Mobil Chemical have?
A.  They had a lot of customers, but I don't think a lot of

them were using that particular type of resin.
Q.  All right.  How many customers were using that particular
type of resin?
A.  I don't recall.
Q.  Okay.  More than a dozen?
A.  Perhaps.
Q.  Now, there came a time, sir, you say when you made a chart;
correct?
A.  I actually made several charts.  There were some early
versions and then the subsequent one that Mr. Udell used.
Q.  And there came a point where you forwarded something to
Mr. Udell?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And by the time you forwarded it to Mr. Udell, how had you
sorted or classified or -- the information?
A.  Well, as I said earlier, it was classified in four parts:



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
the melt-flow index, the antioxidant package, the ultraviolet
package, and whether or not the product contained a
calcium-carbonate tracer.
Q.  And how many companies did you list on your list that you
sent to Mr. Udell?
A.  Over 40.  I don't recall the exact number.
Q.  Okay.  Let me see if I can approach and refresh your
recollection.
         Sir, just to refresh your recollection, will you look
at that and see if that's what you sent to Mr. Udell.
A.  No.  No.  This was one of the earlier charts that I had --
I think I did send him this.
         I wouldn't have sent him this.
Q.  So that's not what you sent him; correct?
A.  No.  This, I believe I sent him; but I don't -- I did not
send him the other charts.
Q.  Now, how did you select what charts you would put
information -- what information you would put on the chart that
you sent to Mr. Udell?
A.  The final chart?
Q.  Yes.
A.  Okay.  That was -- if a company had a specific antioxidant
package or UV package or whether or not they used calcium
carbonate, we tried to eliminate that particular manufacturer
based on one of those four issues.



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
Q.  Okay.  Now, you say "we tried to eliminate"?
A.  I tried to eliminate.
Q.  You had a list of how many people that were making things
out of polyethylene?
A.  A long list.
Q.  100 names, maybe?  How many?
A.  Approximately.
Q.  100 names.  Let's take 100.  And you were calling them up
and interviewing them; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Not keeping any contemporaneous notes of who you spoke to,
what you asked them, and so on; correct?
A.  Well, I asked them all the same questions; so if I didn't
note it on the note set I was taking . . .  It wasn't unusual

for me.
Q.  So the answer to my question is you were not keeping any
contemporaneous notes?
A.  I was maintaining notes during the course of the phone
call, but --
Q.  But you didn't make any 302's; right?  Correct.  Now, you
say then there came a time when you -- now, did you ever talk
to a fellow at Plastic Color or Plastic Colour in Canada?
A.  Color additive company?
Q.  Yes.
A.  Sounds familiar.



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
Q.  Were you trying to find out from them what their additive
package was?
A.  Yes, I would have done that.
Q.  Did they tell you?
A.  I got full cooperation with everybody except one company
initially, so I believe they did.
Q.  Well, didn't -- let's just go through this one at a time.
You started out; you had a membership roster of plastics
companies; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Then you were directed to call certain customers of Nova
Corporation; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Okay.  And you found out that, from Nova Corp. customers --
that there are certain applications such as horse-stall liners
and hockey boards that were made with their plastics; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Did you ever call the horse-stall-liner companies to see
what other farm-type products they made?
A.  No.
Q.  Why didn't you call them?
A.  I was only concerned with the manufacturers.
Q.  What manufacturers?  The resin manufacturers, or the
product manufacturers?
A.  Both.



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
Q.  Well, what company was it that made hockey boards and
horse-stall liners?
A.  I don't recall the name right off.
Q.  And in fact, it's not in your notes, is it -- the name?
A.  Somewhere in my notes, this information is listed with the
company that I contacted.
Q.  Okay.  We'll get to it.
         Now, what did you understand to be the additive in
Smurfit plastic?
A.  The antioxidant package, or UV stabilizer package?
Q.  The whole thing.
A.  Something called Irganox 168 or Irgafos 168 as an
antioxidant.  Irganox 1010 and a Weston 399, kind of a blend of
those chemicals.
         The UV stabilizer package was Tinuvin 622, and they
used calcium carbonate as a tracer.
Q.  All right.  I'm going to show you a page from your notes.
         What does that reflect about what's in the Smurfit
plastic?  Was that somebody telling you something different?
A.  No.  That was a question that I had for Mr. Udell.
Q.  And it says "Ciba 225," doesn't it?
A.  Yes, it does.
Q.  Is that Mr. Udell telling you that something called Ciba
225 is in their plastic?
A.  No.



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
Q.  Why did then -- what does that reflect?
A.  That was a question that I had whether or not the Weston
399 blend was similar to the Ciba 225 blend, something I was
trying to resolve.  Some of the companies were saying that they
used Ciba 225 in their product, and I didn't know what it was.
Q.  All right.  And you wrote your -- your note says, "Ciba 225
is Smurfit additive"; correct?
A.  I believe there is a question mark behind it.  No?
         No.
Q.  No?
A.  No.
Q.  So it says without a question mark "Ciba 225 is Smurfit
additive"; correct?
A.  Well, it says that.
Q.  Are you telling us now that that should have a question
mark on it?
A.  Yes.
Q.  So -- but this is your note; correct?
A.  It is.
Q.  And if -- once again, if we were to look for some 302
report of this interview, we wouldn't find it; correct?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Now, did you attempt to determine how long a time the
additive package or the UV additive package would stay visible
or detectable by chemical processes?



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
A.  No.
Q.  Do you remember calling an outfit called Zarn, Inc.?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Did you communicate with Mr. Udell and let him know what
you had found out from Zarn, Inc.?
A.  Only from the standpoint of providing him with a chart.
Q.  Now, you said that at one time you began by looking just at
barrels and then you started to look at other products;
correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Tell us what -- how that process worked.
A.  The reason for it?
Q.  Yes.
A.  There was some concern that the plastic that was recovered
during the crime-scene search may have come from products other
than high-density-polyethylene, natural-resin barrels.
Q.  And you wanted to investigate that; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Now, how many people in the United States manufacture --
how many companies manufacture high-density polyethylene?
A.  I have no idea.
Q.  How many manufacturers of high-density polyethylene did you
contact?
A.  Dozens.
Q.  You contacted Mobil; right?



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
A.  Well, they're a resin supplier, not a manufacturer.
Q.  That's what I'm talking about, people who make the resin.
How many resin makers are there?
A.  Well, let's see.  There is Conoco, Mobil, Union Carbide,
Nova -- four or five.
Q.  Well, are those the only resin manufacturers that you
contacted?
A.  Yes.
Q.  The ones you've listed?  All right.
A.  Correct.
Q.  Is that right?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Are you aware that high-density polyethylene is a
by-product of petroleum production?
A.  I understand that's correct.
Q.  And you didn't contact any other of the major petroleum
companies in the United States other than the ones you've
listed; right?
A.  That's correct.
Q.  So -- and on your list, the only majors are Mobil and
Conoco; right?
A.  I don't know what their volume is, sir.
Q.  I'm talking about majors in terms of petroleum.  You didn't
contact Royal Dutch Shell?
A.  Right.



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
Q.  Didn't contact BP?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Didn't contact Chevron?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Didn't contact Standard or Exxon?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Or by inference, any others?
A.  Correct.
Q.  So are you able, sir, to tell this jury that you have
accounted in your survey for all of the high-density-
polyethylene resin produced in the United States from 1980 to
1994, '95?
A.  I contacted all the manufacturers that I was aware of.
Q.  When you say "manufacturers" --
A.  The resin manufacturers and the companies that use that
resin.
Q.  And again, when you say that you were aware of, these are
lists that other people provided to you; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Okay.  And in addition to those in the United States,
you're aware that at least one search scene here, a recycled
barrel from Argentina was found.  Did you know that?
A.  No.
         MR. MEARNS:  Objection.
         THE COURT:  Sustained.



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  Now, throughout your -- in your notes, did from time to
time you mark and just put the name "Udell" indicating that you
wanted Mr. Udell to contact the people?
A.  Well, Mr. Udell contacted everybody that I contacted.
Q.  Oh, he went and recontacted them?
A.  I asked the companies to cooperate with him so that he
could go through the elimination chart, contact those companies
in preparation for his testimony in this matter.
Q.  Oh.  So -- so you helped -- you did some research; correct?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Then you called all the companies and said, "A Mr. Udell
will be calling you.  I'm Agent Hayes of the FBI.  Please
cooperate with him and tell him what he wants to know";
correct?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Now, did you contact an outfit called Air Lock Plastics?
A.  Is that in Tonawanda, New York?
Q.  Yes, sir.
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  And you're smiling -- the record doesn't reflect it.
Who -- who did you speak to there?
A.  I couldn't get past the switchboard operator initially.
Q.  And your notes say, "Two calls -- WCB."  What does that
mean?  Will call back?



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
A.  Yes.
Q.  And that "per snotty operator":  Did you write that?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  And so given the fact that you couldn't get past the
switchboard at Air Lock, being -- how did the FBI decide to get
information from Air Lock Plastics?
A.  We sent an agent out to the business.
Q.  And did the agent do an interview at Air Lock Plastics?
A.  I presume that he did.
Q.  Did that result in a 302 that you have seen?
A.  Not that I've seen.
Q.  Would in the normal course, you know, of business a 302, if
it had been made, come back to you?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Well, did you tell him not to do a 302?
A.  No.
Q.  Were you the one that instructed the agent to go see him?
A.  I sent the teletype directing an agent from the Buffalo
office to go out there and ascertain the information that we
needed to know.
Q.  Okay.  Now, you also contacted an outfit called
"Rubbermaid."  Correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  They're the maker of many specialty products; correct?
A.  Correct.



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
Q.  And did you receive from them any literature about all the
different products that Rubbermaid makes?
A.  No.
Q.  Do you have any idea how many products Rubbermaid makes
that are made of high-density polyethylene?
A.  No.
Q.  Did they ever send you a recipe for their polyethylene?
A.  Not that I recall.
         As I recall, they didn't make any high-density-
polyethylene, natural-resin products.
Q.  Well, that's what you're telling us, sir, today.  My
question is did they ever send you a catalogue?  Did you ever
ask them to send you a recipe?
A.  They never sent me a catalogue.
         By "recipe," do you mean the ingredients they used in
that particular product?
Q.  Yes.  Did they ever send you a recipe?
A.  Not that I recall.
Q.  Now, who did you speak to -- you talked to an outfit called
National Plastics Color, Inc.; do you remember that?
A.  I don't recall that specifically, no.
Q.  Do you recall that you talked to somebody who makes the
additive package for Florida Drum Company?
A.  That could be, yes.
Q.  And you found out that they do use calcium carbonate;



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
correct?
A.  There were a few companies that used it as a tracer.  I
don't recall that specifically, but there were a few.
Q.  So calcium carbonate, you found out, is not at all unique
to Smurfit; correct?
A.  Well, there is only a few companies that use it; so in
terms of being unique, I guess not.
Q.  No.  Not unique.  Correct.  And did you find out whether
Tinuvin 622 is marketed under any other names than Tinuvin 622?
A.  No.
Q.  And we've already established that you didn't know what --
whether or not it was under patent at that time.  Correct?
A.  I don't believe you've asked that question.
Q.  Oh.  Do you know whether Tinuvin 622 was under patent in
1993-94?
A.  No.
Q.  Now, you found out that Union Carbide had used the Irganox
1010 and Irgafos 168 during a certain time period; correct?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Now -- and you remember they sent you a letter about that?
Do you recall that?
A.  I believe they faxed me some information on it.  I don't
know if they sent a letter or not.
         Looks like they sent me a letter.
Q.  Well, they sent you a letter and they told you about



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
additive packages between January, 1993, and April, 1995.
Correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Well, is that the information you had asked from them?
A.  I asked them to go back until the -- well, I asked each of
the companies to go back into the late 80's.  They may not have
been making that specific product back then.  It may just be
that they were only making that particular resin during that
time frame.
Q.  In terms of may have been, I just want to talk about this
letter.  What they told you was that they used a certain
additive package between January, 1993, and April, 1995;
correct?
A.  Correct.
Q.  So based on this letter, you wouldn't know their additive
package from anytime prior to April, 1993; correct?
A.  Not for those specific resins, if they were making them
back then.
Q.  And we've established that you didn't know how long these
barrels would last in normal use; correct?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Now, did you find while you were doing your investigation
that similar information with respect to some of these things
has been -- had been furnished to Mr. Buechele?
A.  No.



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
Q.  Well, sir, didn't Mr. Farmer of Van Leer tell you that
they'd sent it to Mr. Buechele?
A.  That's what it says here.
Q.  Now, when you got that, do you know who Mr. Buechele is?
A.  I do now.
Q.  Pardon?
A.  Yes, I do.
Q.  Well, you say you do now.  When is the first time you
became aware of who Mr. R. Buechele is?
A.  Sometime during the -- my inquiries regarding this project.
Q.  And did you call -- you understand him to be a special
agent of the FBI?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Did you call him to ask him what research he had done?
A.  No.
Q.  Why not?
A.  Didn't think it was necessary.
Q.  So you never found out what investigation or -- that he had
done; correct?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Well, can you tell us what occasion, then, you had to write
Mr. Buechele's and Ms. Knuckles' name on your notes.
A.  Well, I was talking to somebody obviously, and the names
either came up or I just jotted it down as -- as information
for myself to perhaps contact at a later date.



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
Q.  As you sit there today, do you have any memory of how it is
that you came to write the names of Mr. Buechele and
Ms. Knuckles on your notes?
A.  No.
Q.  Now, earlier we were talking about an outfit called Plastic
Color; and do you remember talking to them?
A.  Not specifically.
Q.  Okay.  Let me show you something, see if it refreshes your
recollection.  See the name there?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Does that refresh your recollection you talked to them?
A.  I don't know if I got this from them, or I got it from one
of the resin -- either producers or manufacturers.  I'm not
sure where that came from.
Q.  All right.  And this is part of the material you had;
correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And you notice that here the material safety data sheet --
their -- one is asked for the chemical name and family for
certain additives.  Correct?
A.  That's what it says.
Q.  They say that's proprietary and they're not telling;
correct?
A.  It was all proprietary information.
Q.  I understand.  This specific document says they're not



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
telling; correct?  They don't reveal it in their data sheet
that was sent to you?
A.  Oh.
Q.  Is that right?
A.  Could well be, yes.
Q.  How long did this project take that you were doing, sir,
before you sent the material off to Mr. Udell to get ready for
his testimony?
A.  I worked on it off and on for about three months, four
months.
Q.  And at what point did you send the material on to
Mr. Udell?
A.  I can't give you a specific date.  It was sometime either
during the McVeigh trial or prior to it.
Q.  I just want to see:  Is this what you sent to Mr. Udell?
Just leaf through it, if you will.
A.  Yes.  This is one of the charts that I sent to him.
Q.  Well, is that everything in there that you sent to
Mr. Udell?
A.  Yes.  It appears that way.
         MR. TIGAR:  I'd like to just mark this for
identification, your Honor, so that we know what we're
referring to.
         THE COURT:  All right.
         MR. TIGAR:  We don't intend to offer it.



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
         May the record reflect that the document that I've
just shown to the exhibit -- to the witness is now marked D1827
for identification.
         THE COURT:  And how many pages are there, Mr. Tigar?
         MR. TIGAR:  Your Honor, there is a cover page, which
is ours, and it's Bates' stamped pages 1 through 17.
         THE COURT:  Thank you.
         MR. TIGAR:  Let me show it to Government counsel.
         Thank you.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  Now, sir, in the list of people you got that are part of
the trade association for the manufacture of drums, you had a
number of names of drum reconditioners; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Did you contact any of the drum reconditioners?
A.  No.
Q.  Why not?
A.  It wasn't in the project.
Q.  Wasn't in the project?
A.  It wasn't in the project.
Q.  Who -- now, you'd be aware that at a drum reconditioner,
you might find drums of various ages; correct?
A.  I would assume so.
Q.  And you might find drums that were made by many different
manufacturers.  Would you -- you agree with that?



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
A.  I'd agree with that.
Q.  All right.  And you'd find drums even by companies that
were once in business making drums and then quit doing it;
correct?
A.  Possibly.
Q.  And who was it that decided that you weren't going to
contact any drum reconditioners or recyclers?
A.  Well, I was asked just to contact the high-density-
polyethylene natural drum, and other product manufacturers, not
reconditioners.
Q.  Okay.  Now -- and who asked you to do that?  Mr. Mendeloff?
A.  Yes.
Q.  He's the one that set the limits; right?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Now, when was it decided to go beyond drums to other
products?
A.  I can't give you a specific date.  It was early on in the
project.
Q.  And who made that decision?
A.  Mr. Mendeloff.
Q.  Did you have a discussion with him about it?
A.  Not that I recall specifically, no.
Q.  He just told you to change the focus.  Is that right?
A.  Expand it.
Q.  To expand the focus.



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
         Now, sir, do you have any training in statistics?
A.  No.
Q.  Do you have any training in polling techniques?
A.  No.
Q.  Have you ever -- did you ever take a statistics course?
A.  No.
Q.  When you would call up people to ask them about these
issues, who would you ask to talk to?
A.  Well, initially, Mr. Udell or somebody from Smurfit.  The
initial list provided names, points of contacts.  The companies
that I called cold, I asked either for the production manager
or the chief chemist.
Q.  All right.  And so the typical call was, "Hello, I'm Agent
Hayes of the FBI."  Right?
A.  Yes.
Q.  "I'd like to talk to your production manager or chief
chemist"; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And then you would ask them about what they had -- what
ingredients they used.  Correct?
A.  Prior to asking that question, I explained what I was
doing.
Q.  All right.  And did you ask them for any time frame,
particular time frame?
A.  Yes.  As I told you earlier, initially it was with the Nova



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
Chemicals was when the first batch was made in '91 up until the
day of the bombing.  With other ones, it went back into the
late 80's, depending on how long they'd been buying a
particular resin or how long that particular resin had been
manufactured.
Q.  And when you say "a particular resin," would you tell them
a code for a resin?
A.  Well, I would say, for instance -- if they bought their
resin from Union Carbide, I'd give them that Union Carbide
number.
Q.  And did -- in each case, did you ask the person to send you
business records that reflected the use of this additive?
A.  No.
Q.  So you took the recollection of whoever was identified to
you on the telephone as the person who remembered; right?
A.  Correct.
Q.  Did you ask each person that you spoke to how long that
person had been working at the company?
A.  No.
Q.  So you had no idea whether you were talking to somebody who
had only worked there a week, or somebody that worked there 10
years; right?
A.  That's correct.
Q.  Now, did you interview anyone from a company in Puerto
Rico?



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
A.  Not personally.
Q.  And who was it that interviewed the people in Puerto Rico?
A.  A member of our support staff.
Q.  And that -- was that because the interview had to be
conducted in Spanish?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  And you found out that there is a company in Puerto Rico
that makes containers -- correct -- for soft drinks and things?
A.  I don't know about that particular product.
Q.  And do you remember the name of the entity in Puerto Rico
with whom you spoke?
A.  Nampac.
Q.  Nampac.
         MR. TIGAR:  Will your Honor give me just a moment?
         THE COURT:  Yes.
         MR. TIGAR:  Just one moment, your Honor.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  Sir, I'd like you to take a look at something here.  Is
this document what you received from Nova?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And who put the arrows on it?
A.  I don't know.
Q.  Did it have arrows on it when it got to you, the black
arrows?
A.  I don't recall seeing that, but it could have.



                     Jeffery Hayes - Direct
Q.  Now, based on the information from Nova, did you call
everybody to whom they supplied resin?
A.  No.
Q.  And how did you decide who not to call?
A.  I only called the ones that were purchasing the -- that
particular resin that was sold to Smurfit.
Q.  Now, that particular resin that was sold to Smurfit didn't
have the additive added to it until after Smurfit got it;
right?
A.  I don't know.
Q.  So are you telling us that you don't know whether or not
the resin that Nova Corp. makes in the millions of pounds every
year is shipped to -- is identical when it's shipped to Smurfit
as it is to some other companies?
A.  I can't tell you that.
Q.  And -- now, you did know about melt index.  Right?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Did you attempt to contact all of the people to whom Nova
had sent resin that had the same melt index?
A.  No.
Q.  That wasn't the basis of your inquiry; correct?
A.  Correct.
         MR. TIGAR:  I have no further questions.
         THE COURT:  Mr. Mearns, do you have any questions?
         MR. MEARNS:  Briefly, your Honor.



                     Jeffery Hayes - Cross
                       CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q.  Agent Hayes, would it be fair to say that during the course
of --
         MR. TIGAR:  Object to leading, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Sustained.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q.  Agent Hayes, during the course of your survey, did you from
time to time speak to Mr. Udell?
A.  Yes, I did.
Q.  About how many times during the course of your survey do
you think you spoke to Mr. Udell?
A.  Half-a-dozen times.
Q.  What was the purpose of contacting Mr. Udell during the
course of your survey?
A.  Periodically, I had questions regarding similar chemicals,
whether or not a specific chemical additive was similar to
another one.
Q.  And did Mr. Udell ever tell you the kinds of questions that
you should ask during the course of your survey to follow up on
the type of information you were getting?
A.  No.
Q.  Did there come a time in September, the end of September,
when you've completed the chart, the elimination chart that
Mr. Tigar was asking you questions about?



                     Jeffery Hayes - Cross
A.  Yes.

Q.  And did that chart then subsequently get a Government
exhibit sticker?
A.  I understand that it did.
Q.  Do you recall what Government exhibit number that was?
A.  No, I don't.
Q.  Let me show you what's been marked for identification as
Government's Exhibit 2055.  Is that the final chart that you
prepared in connection with your survey?
A.  Yes, it is.
Q.  And that is the chart that you prepared in consultation
with Mr. Udell?
A.  I didn't have any discussions with Mr. Udell regarding the
preparation of this chart.
Q.  Did you fax -- did you ever provide him with drafts of the
chart?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Is there an entry on that chart for Zarn, Incorporated?
A.  Yes, there is.
Q.  And was Zarn, Incorporated, eliminated as a possible match
with the -- the plastic fragments that were found at the crime
scene of the explosion in Oklahoma City?
         MR. TIGAR:  Objection.
         THE COURT:  Sustained.
BY MR. MEARNS:



                     Jeffery Hayes - Cross
Q.  Based on your contact with Zarn, Incorporated, did they
tell you whether or not they used calcium carbonate with their
UV stabilizer?
         MR. TIGAR:  Objection, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Sustained.
         MR. MEARNS:  May I just have a moment, your Honor?
         THE COURT:  Yes.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q.  To the best of your knowledge, Agent Hayes, did the
information that you obtained during the course of the survey
get included in one form or another on that chart, Government's
Exhibit 2055?
         MR. TIGAR:  Objection, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Overruled.
         THE WITNESS:  Yes, it did.
BY MR. MEARNS:
Q.  Mr. Tigar asked you certain questions about drum
reconditioners.  Based upon your survey, do you know whether or
not when a drum is reconditioned, a plastic drum is
reconditioned -- whether or not that changes the chemical
composition of the drum?
         MR. TIGAR:  Objection, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  Sustained.
         MR. MEARNS:  I have no further questions, your Honor.
         MR. TIGAR:  May we approach the bench briefly, your
Honor?
         THE COURT:  Yes.
    (At the bench:)
    (Bench Conference 112B2 is not herein transcribed by court
order.  It is transcribed as a separate sealed transcript.)
 

 

 

 

































    (In open court:)
         THE COURT:  Do you have any additional questions for
this witness?
         MR. TIGAR:  No, your Honor.  No follow-up.
         THE COURT:  Is he excused now?
         MR. TIGAR:  He is as far as we're concerned, your
Honor.
         MR. MEARNS:  Yes, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  You may step down, Agent Hayes.  You're
excused.
         And before calling the next witness, I want to remind
you, members of the jury, that you heard testimony from
Mr. Udell, who has been referred to here in this testimony,
back on November 26 -- Wednesday, November 26; that in the
course of the testimony of Mr. Udell, this matter of telephone
calls to various manufacturers and so forth came up and that it
was after Mr. Udell stepped down from the stand on that day
that upon request, the notes, including the notes that
Mr. Hayes here has referred to, which he gave to Mr. Udell, or
information was provided to the attorneys for the defense, this
information -- these notes and the matters that are going to be
talked about here -- that have been talked about with Mr. Hayes
and will be talked about, perhaps, with other witnesses, were
provided on December 2.
         There has been a reference to this document called
Exhibit 2055, a summary chart.  That was provided to defense
counsel before the trial began.  That, of course, is not in
evidence; but we're going to -- I assume we're going to have
Mr. Udell back.
         MR. TIGAR:  The next witness, your Honor.
         THE COURT:  The next witness.  And that's the reason
that he's being re-called; that defense counsel, now has this
material that was not available to him at the time that he
cross-examined Mr. Udell back on November 26.  All he had at
that time was the summary chart.
         All right.  Re-call Mr. Udell.
         Mr. Udell, you're being re-called under the oath you
took with us back on November 26.
         THE WITNESS:  Okay.
         THE COURT:  Please resume the stand.
         Mr. Tigar.
    (Theodore Udell was re-called.)
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  Good morning, sir.
A.  Good morning.
Q.  Mr. Udell, do you remember testifying that you gave the FBI
a list of questions that were to be asked of people?
A.  Generally, yes.
Q.  Pardon?



                    Theodore Udell - Direct
A.  Yes.
Q.  Did you, in fact, give the FBI a list of questions?
A.  Not a written list.
Q.  Do you remember being asked this question:  "Did the FBI
give you a list of questions that you were supposed to ask the
witnesses that you were interviewing on their behalf?
         "Answer:  I think I gave them a list of questions.
         "Question:  Did they accept your list?
         "Answer:  I believe so."
         Your testimony is that was an oral list?"
A.  Yes.
Q.  Now, do you remember on the last occasion that you were
here that you talked about your notes?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And you told us the method that you had done to make the
survey.  Do you recall that, sir?
A.  I don't follow on your question.
Q.  Well, you told us of the survey that you had conducted;
correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And do you remember telling us that the notes would tell us
what questions you asked and what answers you received?
A.  No, I don't remember saying that.
Q.  Do you remember being asked, "Question:  Would those notes
tell us what questions you asked and what answers you received"



                    Theodore Udell - Direct
and your answering yes?
A.  Yes.
         MR. TIGAR:  Placing a sticker on, for our reference,
Defendant's D1828, consisting of 17 pages.
BY MR. TIGAR:
Q.  Some of the page numbers we put in in pen.  Are those the
notes to which you referred?
A.  Yes.
Q.  That's all of them?
A.  I believe so.
Q.  Well, are there any questions in there?
A.  No.
Q.  Why did you tell the jury under oath that we'd find
questions in your notes, if there weren't any there?
A.  I don't think I -- well, my -- I guess the answer is the
answers to the questions I asked, I basically quizzed the
people I talked to about the information that I was looking
for.
Q.  Now, that's your explanation?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Did you keep any record of this list of questions that you
provided to the FBI?
A.  No.
Q.  Who in the FBI did you give a list of questions to?
A.  Jeff Hayes.



                    Theodore Udell - Direct
Q.  Is he the only person in the FBI with whom you spoke about
these matters?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Did you also speak to Mr. Mendeloff about these matters?
A.  Not that I remember.
Q.  When did Mr. Hayes first contact you?
A.  At least a year ago.
Q.  So that would be sometime late in 1996?
A.  Approximately.
Q.  And did he ask for your help?
A.  I can't say precisely.
Q.  What -- what was the conversation?
A.  At what point in time?  I mean this --
Q.  When he first called you, sir, what was the conversation?
What did you talk about?
A.  I think the problem is you're starting in the middle of
something, and it's hard for me to grasp where you're trying to
go.
Q.  I understand.  Well, at some point you were first contacted
by Special Agent Hayes; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Now, before that time you had talked to Special -- or
Monica Knuckles; correct?
A.  That's correct.
Q.  And what other agents had you talked to?



                    Theodore Udell - Direct
A.  I did not write a list of who I talked to.
Q.  Now, did Agent Hayes contact you about doing some sort of a
survey?
A.  I believe so, but I can't be certain that he's the one that
initiated it.
Q.  Well, do you have any memory of talking to anyone else
other than Agent Hayes from the federal government about doing
some sort of a survey?
A.  No.
Q.  When is the first time you can remember talking to Agent
Hayes about doing some sort of a survey?
A.  I don't have an exact date.
Q.  Well, were you asked at sometime to help in doing some sort
of a survey?
A.  Yes, I was.
Q.  And what was your understanding of what your responsibility
was in doing this survey?
A.  When Monica -- can I answer that by just going back a
little bit in time?
Q.  No.  What's your understanding -- well, all right.  I'm
sorry.  I want to be fair to you, sir.  Monica Knuckles came to
you.  Was that the first contact with the FBI?
A.  That's correct.
Q.  And you testified that you spread out a bunch of plastic
fragments on a conference table; correct?



                    Theodore Udell - Direct
A.  That's correct.
Q.  And how many plastic fragments did you have spread out on
the conference table?
A.  I have no idea.  It was a lot of pieces of plastic.
Q.  All right.  And there came a time when it was decided to
focus just on a couple of bags of plastic fragments; correct?
A.  That's correct.
Q.  And there was an effort just going to be working with those
plastic fragments and see if they matched somebody's barrels;
correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Do you know if other people were asked to take other pieces
of plastic on the conference table and try to match them to
somebody else's barrels?
A.  Well, before Monica Knuckles came to me, she went to
Van Leer and asked Van Leer to do the same thing.
Q.  Now, my question -- and that's the only knowledge you have
of any attempt to find out whose barrels or whose polyethylene
things might match the pieces of plastic on your conference
table, you and Van Leer; correct?
A.  I don't follow your question now.
Q.  You know that attention focused on some pieces of plastic
that were on your conference table to see if they matched your
plastic; correct?
A.  Yes.



                    Theodore Udell - Direct
Q.  And you heard from Monica Knuckles that she had taken some
other pieces of plastic and gone to Van Leer; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Do you know of any efforts to try to match all these other
pieces of plastic on your conference table to somebody else's
barrels other than yours and Van Leer's?
A.  No.
Q.  Now, after you talked to Monica Knuckles about this and you
looked -- you identified some pieces of plastic as perhaps
being yours; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  You told us about that last time you were here?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Then what's the next thing did you with the FBI?
A.  Well, I told Monica Knuckles that she was in luck because
we had a tracer in our natural drums.
Q.  Now, you said your tracer.  Now, that's this calcium
carbonate; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And calcium carbonate is added to an additive package
produced for you by Allied; correct?
A.  Yes.
Q.  And that is designed to help, when you analyze it,
determine if the percentage of additive is correct in the
product.  Is that one purpose of it?



                    Theodore Udell - Direct
A.  One purpose of it.
Q.  Yes.  It's also a filler; correct?
A.  We do not use it as a filler, but it can be used